Ricky Carmichael interview, 4-strokes and injuries in SX

Nice first post. LOL

chump6784 wrote: Nice first post. LOL

In contrast to what? Nothing wrong with it?

There's a good article in Cycle News that interviews a number of people to get their take on the 2012 SX injury rate.

http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/supercross_motocross/2012/05/30/supercross-2012-what-went-wrong/

It's the schedule. It's not the 4 strokes.

Every time these guys put a leg over a bike they are rolling the dice. And the sport these days requires more testing and practice than ever before. Sure, the tracks are gnarlier than ever but the bikes and riders are also better so it evens out.

Its the year round schedule. Week in, week out.

Felgen wrote: I just listened to an interview with Carmichael on the Moto Magazine website, in which he indirectly said that 4-strokes was some of the reason so many of the top guys got injured this year:
Moto Magazine interview

This got me thinking, how cool would it be if Supercross was only for 2-strokes, 125 and 250's?
And do you guys think it would make any difference regarding injuries?

Also, in the MXdN, the MX3 class is basically another 450 class. What if they instead had a 2-stroke class?

PS, this is my first post here on VitalMX, been lurking around for a while, finally registered.. So hello to you all!

Damn how sick would it be to have a 2 stroke class at the MXDN. Too bad that would never happen.

"but the bikes and riders are also better so it evens out"

I don't understand this argument.
Are the riders magically not able to crash with a better bike? Obviously not, they are still crashing.
Crashes are nothing new. So why are they getting hurt in record numbers?
A popular quote (I think by RC) and I paraphrase, "Gravity hasn't changed".

Crashes are happening at ALOT FASTER speeds in supercross that ever before, on heavier bikes.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Now think of the all multipliers you can add to that equation. They all make the end force go UP.

We want the force to go DOWN if we want less traumatic crashes. Lower speeds or use a softer racing surface to lower acceleration (deceleration), or lower the overall mass. There is no "better bike" in that equation (other than lighter bike).

Read the cycle news article. Carmichael comments that the nationals also have fast speeds, but the obstacles are not so close together so you have room to abort or recover. Other factors such as softer dirt and less jumping "up" are cited as equalizers for the high speed nationals.

Many people comment that injuries will happen. Villopoto's knee. Canards and Mo's freak collision. Things like that, but it's a fact we are seeing way more potentionally career ending injuries when the inevitable happens.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. I just don't understand why a large majority shrugs it off as "injuries happen in motocross, nothing we can do about it".

faster tracks made for the faster/heavier bikes does not play well if you go down.

I highly doubt the ~6-8% increase in weight is enough to be the difference between getting injured and not getting injured. Especially when most of the impacts don't involve the bike. And alot of the 250F riders are going just as fast as the 450 riders

Derpin' DJ wrote: I highly doubt the ~6-8% increase in weight is enough to be the difference between getting injured and not getting injured. Especially when most of the impacts don't involve the bike. And alot of the 250F riders are going just as fast as the 450 riders

So why the need for 450cc indoors?

Why couldn't they have stock and mod 250 classes? Stock class can change nothing except the wheels, bars and suspension internals.

I do think the 450 is a bit unnecessary indoors. Theres too much power to spare. I liked the idea of both classes running 250F's indoors.

Wouldn't take them away outdoors though

Derpin' DJ wrote: I highly doubt the ~6-8% increase in weight is enough to be the difference between getting injured and not getting injured. Especially when most of the impacts don't involve the bike. And alot of the 250F riders are going just as fast as the 450 riders

reded wrote: So why the need for 450cc indoors?

Why couldn't they have stock and mod 250 classes? Stock class can change nothing except the wheels, bars and suspension internals.

Why not just have one 250 stock class, and one mod, BUT allow both fourstrokes and twostrokes?

Yeah, I like that idea. Although the 250 2t would have to have a limit on the mods IMO

Felgen wrote: Why not just have one 250 stock class, and one mod, BUT allow both fourstrokes and twostrokes?

I'm down with that. Let's see what each engine design is capable of against each other in the hands of the pros.

Honda just call they and they don't like the idea.

If 2013 ends up like 2012, something will be done. The OEM's lose out when their rider gets injured, so surely they will want to do something to fix the situation.

IMO though, it was all a bunch of bad luck. Nothing changed between 2011 and 2012 to cause the epidemic

Spartacus wrote: Honda just call they and they don't like the idea.

Tell them that this is America, MF'ers! This is how we're doing it, don't like it, race elsewhere.

Spartacus wrote: Honda just call they and they don't like the idea.

reded wrote: Tell them that this is America, MF'ers! This is how we're doing it, don't like it, race elsewhere.

Please send that note to the lemmings.

All I need is an address......

The "Powers that be", colluded to create this little paradigm shift.
They can now live with there little monster they've created.
Along w corporate sponsorship money from the "clueless"....
(as DB has stated)

observer wrote: The "Powers that be", colluded to create this little paradigm shift.
They can now live with there little monster they've created.
Along w corporate sponsorship money from the "clueless"....
(as DB has stated)

Just waiting for someone to come along and ask what guys like RC and DB know about any of this. Guy B couldn't have clipped them all....

Derpin' DJ wrote: If 2013 ends up like 2012, something will be done. The OEM's lose out when their rider gets injured, so surely they will want to do something to fix the situation.

IMO though, it was all a bunch of bad luck. Nothing changed between 2011 and 2012 to cause the epidemic

Lets not forget 2010 was much like 2012. That's two out of three years in supercross a series has been spoiled with injuries. I'm not talking about the big names getting hurt either, but a lot of riders, overall.

If we are going back more years, let's go back to 2006 when most of the field had 450s in sx. I can't recall as many injuries. The power hasn't increased all that much since then, but the handling has improved, and the riders are pushing more.

Only one solution- Everyone on 500 2-strokes.

MX45 wrote: "but the bikes and riders are also better so it evens out"

I don't understand this argument.
Are the riders magically not able to crash with a better bike? Obviously not, they are still crashing.
Crashes are nothing new. So why are they getting hurt in record numbers?
A popular quote (I think by RC) and I paraphrase, "Gravity hasn't changed".

Crashes are happening at ALOT FASTER speeds in supercross that ever before, on heavier bikes.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Now think of the all multipliers you can add to that equation. They all make the end force go UP.

We want the force to go DOWN if we want less traumatic crashes. Lower speeds or use a softer racing surface to lower acceleration (deceleration), or lower the overall mass. There is no "better bike" in that equation (other than lighter bike).

Read the cycle news article. Carmichael comments that the nationals also have fast speeds, but the obstacles are not so close together so you have room to abort or recover. Other factors such as softer dirt and less jumping "up" are cited as equalizers for the high speed nationals.

Many people comment that injuries will happen. Villopoto's knee. Canards and Mo's freak collision. Things like that, but it's a fact we are seeing way more potentionally career ending injuries when the inevitable happens.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. I just don't understand why a large majority shrugs it off as "injuries happen in motocross, nothing we can do about it".

Good post.

I always use the crime rate analogy. Crime cannot be eliminated, much like injuries in this sport, but there are ways to reduce crime rates and there are variables exist that influence higher crime rates. This sport seems to have the mentality similar to, "Yeah, America has the highest violet crime rate out of first world nations (a fact), but ya know, stuff just happens, so lets just look the other way."

You guys are so cute, with your "ban 4-strokes/450's" rants. It's not going to happen, either accept it or get over it.

Would TC be less injured had he been landed on a 250 2S?
Would RV be less injured had he twisted his knee on a 250 2S?
Would CR be less injured had he came up short on a 250 2S?


The riders are going WAY faster (as a whole) than ever before. If they were on 2 strokes, they'd still be pushing the edge way more than before, and getting hurt. Hell, look at how much slower they went in the videos from the late 90's and even early 2000's....

huck wrote: You guys are so cute, with your "ban 4-strokes/450's" rants. It's not going to happen, either accept it or get over it.

Would TC be less injured had he been landed on a 250 2S?
Would RV be less injured had he twisted his knee on a 250 2S?
Would CR be less injured had he came up short on a 250 2S?


The riders are going WAY faster (as a whole) than ever before. If they were on 2 strokes, they'd still be pushing the edge way more than before, and getting hurt. Hell, look at how much slower they went in the videos from the late 90's and even early 2000's....

News flash, 450's are way faster than the power of a 250 two stroke, which is why everyone made the switch. If power has nothing to do with it, do you believe injury rates would be this high if the premier class were racing supped up pit bikes?

They banned all 500cc 2 strokes in AMA competition at the end of 1993'........but look at it now.....we have a shit load of bikes out there racing that are pulling close to 500cc 2 stroke power! Maybe not the " Light switch " type power those 500's had......but the power is there.

The bottom line is.....this sport evolved......and evolution isn't always a good thing when it comes to things like this. Our athletes have gotten better , faster , in better shape and have been forced into riding on the very edge ( some times past that edge ) to stay competitive. Then.....you slap them on bikes that have basically "unlimited power"........it's a recipe for destruction.

I hate seeing all our guys sitting out from injuries all the time. I'm not going to sit here and argue that it's the 4 strokes either....because it isn't. The 4 strokes are easier to ride for sure.......but that also means they are easier to go fast on......exactly what a serious racer wants!!

I think we just need to dial them back a little......they are just to God damn fast!

If it doesn't get dialed back I'm afraid that in another few years the thread title will read, "Chad Reed interview, 4-strokes and Deaths in SX".

Damn those 2 strokes for ending the careers of so many top racers...

David Bailey
Rick Johnson
Ernesto Fonseca
Bobby "fucking" Myers!
Jimmy Button