Red Flag Usage

TDeath21
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1/11/2016 1:59pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2016 10:37am
I don't quite understand the AMA/FIM logic behind the red flag. I'll use two examples just from Saturday that make zero sense to me.

The first one was the much talked about Stweart/Dungey incident. Stewart goes down and they immediately red flag it. I felt like Stewart was in the perfect position to receive medical care without disrupting the race. He was off to the side of the track in an area where there were no rhythm sections or whoops. On one side they had the start straight and on the other they had the flat ground prior to the finish line jump. In every overhead shot I saw, the Asterisk mule was right there by the finish line jump, which is right where Stewart was. I felt like they threw the red flag way too soon on this one.

The second was the rider who was down in the 250 heat where Webb passed Craig. He was laying there in a dangerous area (on a rhythm section and a triple right next to him) for two or three laps. Not even Red Cross flags were displayed here, and riders were still racing hard all around him. If the red flag was displayed in the 450 main, then it definitely should have been displayed here.

I feel like the AMA/FIM is way too quick to throw the red flag most of the time. They could give the rider the medical attention they need without disrupting the race. However, putting rider safety above all else is how it should be, and it's understandable when they err on the side of caution and maybe throw the red flag too soon at times. I'm fine with that. However, if that's the case, I don't understand not red flagging the 250 heat race. Maybe it was because the 250 heat was almost over? Who knows?

What do you guys think about the way the use the red flag nowadays? It used to be extremely rare, and now it averages about once per night.

The Webb pass and the Stewart/Dungey incident have been discussed enough. Let's keep this discussion about the red flag usage.
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Starcrossed
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1/11/2016 2:06pm
It wasn't thrown right away for Stewart. I think they threw it because he was unconscious.
bvm111
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1/11/2016 2:08pm
Were you there on the ground for both incidents?

Do you have access to all of the information that the medical crew were providing back to the AMA for both instances?

Are you a medical professional or safety expert?

I for one would rather trust the medical professionals on the ground that are making the tough decisions and recommendations back to the AMA, than coming on here and second guessing their judgment calls in real time while they are on the scene.
Titan1
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1/11/2016 2:08pm
This is what I said in the booing thread....

I think they use the red flag to much now days...they have yellow flags, they have Red Cross flags...the red flag should only be used in extreme circumstances.

I don't want to have to be the guy who makes the call on if the circumstances are extreme enough for a red flag or not, so I won't second guess any decisions they make...other than to say I think it's used to much...if they can't get to an unconscious rider or something, sure, red flag...

Restarting races should an extreme extreme exception.

And I'll add, that if a rider is down in location where they can be protected with a yellow flag or red cross flag, and where they can be removed from the track safely (like Stewart could have been), they shouldn't waive the red flag.

It was just a couple years ago that I saw it for the first time...and they took like a 30 minute segment out of the show to explain it...now I'm seeing it almost every weekend.
hvaughn88
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1/11/2016 2:10pm Edited Date/Time 1/11/2016 2:10pm
Did someone throw the red flag on this thread? If there's less than 3 threads on the same topic, do we have a restart?

The Shop

mattyhamz2
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1/11/2016 2:10pm
Ya Stewart was unconscious that's why the 450 main was red flagged. As far as the 250 qualifier I don't understand why the Red Cross flag wasn't out either.
gt80rider
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1/11/2016 2:10pm
You lost all cred when you said stew was in the "perfect position" to receive medical attention... The "perfect position" would have been on the other side of the tuff boxes and not on the actual track...
TDeath21
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1/11/2016 2:13pm
bvm111 wrote:
Were you there on the ground for both incidents? Do you have access to all of the information that the medical crew were providing back to...
Were you there on the ground for both incidents?

Do you have access to all of the information that the medical crew were providing back to the AMA for both instances?

Are you a medical professional or safety expert?

I for one would rather trust the medical professionals on the ground that are making the tough decisions and recommendations back to the AMA, than coming on here and second guessing their judgment calls in real time while they are on the scene.
I knew it wouldn't take long for a comment like this.
hillbilly
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1/11/2016 2:15pm
If the flaggers dont have headsets on then the decision of what flag to use will be inconsistent and rely on the mindset of the flagger.

They should all have headsets(which i dont think they all have) and a race director could aid in what flag needs to be put out.

Myself,if I'm down and out of the way like Stewart was no way i want the red flag thrown but that is just me.
mxtech1
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1/11/2016 2:21pm
How is that the perfect position? He was unconscious surrounded my medial personnel in a main racing line.
DownSouth
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1/11/2016 2:21pm Edited Date/Time 1/11/2016 2:23pm
They left Mike Alessi laying in the middle of the track for what seemed like 5-6 laps last year during the Daytona 450 main while the racing kept going right around them.

The red flag usage is hard to figure out but I sure have noticed that the last 5 years seems to have resulted in more red flags than my first 25 years of watching this sport.

https://youtu.be/BtoKXS0GCa0
mx836
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1/11/2016 2:27pm
bvm111 wrote:
Were you there on the ground for both incidents? Do you have access to all of the information that the medical crew were providing back to...
Were you there on the ground for both incidents?

Do you have access to all of the information that the medical crew were providing back to the AMA for both instances?

Are you a medical professional or safety expert?

I for one would rather trust the medical professionals on the ground that are making the tough decisions and recommendations back to the AMA, than coming on here and second guessing their judgment calls in real time while they are on the scene.
How do you know the "medical professionals" were the ones who gave the go ahead for the red flag?

Stewart was in a safe place. Feld loves to throw the red flag these days. It wasn't necessary IMO and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, bro. That red flag ruined A1 IMO. Still a good race, but we should try to only use the red flag when it is absolutely necessary. That, or do a single file restart if 1 lap of the race is completed. It's not fair to restart a race already in progress with a complete restart, IMHO of course.
hillbilly
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1/11/2016 2:28pm
DownSouth wrote:
They left Mike Alessi laying in the middle of the track for what seemed like 5-6 laps last year during the Daytona 450 main while the...
They left Mike Alessi laying in the middle of the track for what seemed like 5-6 laps last year during the Daytona 450 main while the racing kept going right around them.

The red flag usage is hard to figure out but I sure have noticed that the last 5 years seems to have resulted in more red flags than my first 25 years of watching this sport.

https://youtu.be/BtoKXS0GCa0
Maybe its who you are.
mx836
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1/11/2016 2:32pm
mxtech1 wrote:
How is that the perfect position? He was unconscious surrounded my medial personnel in a main racing line.
No obstacles around him for anyone to get landed on. Laying on flat ground out of a corner. Put out the medic flag, move some tuff blocks. No problem. And I'm just as concerned for Stew's health as anyone here. If you have to get the medic cart to him and crossing the track is necessary, then I understand a red flag. Just like Matthes said to Reed in the post race interview, if that was a privateer laying there instead of James, no way they throw the red flag.
DownSouth
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1/11/2016 2:33pm
hillbilly wrote:
Maybe its who you are.
I would guess that plays a part in it. Due to the medical crews extensive history with Stewart I would guess they panic more when he is asleep on the track than a guy who has not been frequently knocked out.
zehn
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1/11/2016 2:39pm
Sorry, but I'll defer to the people who actually run the racing to determine when the red flag is appropriate to use...
theToothPerry
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1/11/2016 2:40pm
If they wouldn't have red flagged Dungey would've tried that horrible line again and gone straight into Stewart again.....
zehn
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1/11/2016 2:41pm
DownSouth wrote:
I would guess that plays a part in it. Due to the medical crews extensive history with Stewart I would guess they panic more when he...
I would guess that plays a part in it. Due to the medical crews extensive history with Stewart I would guess they panic more when he is asleep on the track than a guy who has not been frequently knocked out.
Who you are has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the AMA race crew would probably be offended if you even suggested as much
DownSouth
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1/11/2016 2:45pm Edited Date/Time 1/11/2016 2:46pm
DownSouth wrote:
I would guess that plays a part in it. Due to the medical crews extensive history with Stewart I would guess they panic more when he...
I would guess that plays a part in it. Due to the medical crews extensive history with Stewart I would guess they panic more when he is asleep on the track than a guy who has not been frequently knocked out.
zehn wrote:
Who you are has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the AMA race crew would probably be offended if you even suggested as much
I was not referring to his star status but their knowledge of his crash history/concussion issues.
1/11/2016 2:46pm
The 450 Main red flag was understandable, and so was the 250 no-flag. Last season Cooper Webb made it very clear there are to be no red flags when he is leading.
mx836
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1/11/2016 2:46pm
zehn wrote:
Who you are has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the AMA race crew would probably be offended if you even suggested as much
Matthes disagrees. You've got way too much faith in Feld and the "AMA race crew" IMO.
zehn
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1/11/2016 2:49pm
mx836 wrote:
Matthes disagrees. You've got way too much faith in Feld and the "AMA race crew" IMO.
Well if Matthes said it....
mx836
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1/11/2016 2:54pm
Laughing I know what you mean and I wasn't trying to say you are wrong because he disagrees, just that apparently there are others out there with much moto knowledge who feel the flag was unnecessary. I guess it is what it is and there is no changing it now plus it never hurts to take as much precaution as possible. I really think there should be no full restart at any point. Order at the end of the lap is the order of the restart. They aren't fair IMO. They change the entire race.
Crush
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1/11/2016 3:23pm
They needed to throw the flag there...

Watch Deano in the heat and indeed Dungey and Stewart. If that happens a lap later the Asterisk team and James are in harms way.

Simple as that.
aaryn #234
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1/11/2016 3:43pm
Yet Politteli was down right in the middle of that same corner in his heat race for more than a lap with the medical team around him, yet no red flag.


That is the only part I found odd.
motomike137
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1/11/2016 4:15pm
I would always error in the favor of a down rider and in the case of a unconscious rider laying on the racing surface I would throw the red in a heart beat.. I would have had the red cross out for the other incident also. The way they do things the yellow is almost meaningless.
cmarona463
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1/11/2016 4:24pm
zehn wrote:
Who you are has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the AMA race crew would probably be offended if you even suggested as much
mx836 wrote:
Matthes disagrees. You've got way too much faith in Feld and the "AMA race crew" IMO.
So you guys are insinuating that they have never thrown a red flag for a privateer? Riiiiiiiiiight Lol.

So the people that are saying Stewart was in a "safe location to receive medical care without stopping the race", if you were unconscious laying in the main racing line out of a corner, would you be comfortable with the track crew only doing the minimum to make sure that you're safe? If you say yes then you're a liar
radialone
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1/11/2016 4:55pm
What's the rule on # of laps completed to do the staggered start instead of the complete restart? Is it 3 laps or something like that? What if the rule was 1 full lap instead or what if less than 3 laps complete they repick gates based on where each rider was when the red flag was thrown. Might complicate the process a bit I guess or delay it too much for TV. I'm not saying anything needs to be changed, just food for thought since we're on the topic.
Tbteam
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1/11/2016 5:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/11/2016 5:11pm
With an unconscious, unresponsive rider, how can the medics evaluate the severity of the injury? What if, God forbid, the rider is severely injured, internal injuries, closed head injury... They need to respond NOW with unhindered access to provide every treatment necessary.

Once the injured rider wakes up, more assessments can be made. But, if they have no idea what's going on, the red flag is completely appropriate.
GuyB
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1/11/2016 5:06pm
bvm111 wrote:
Were you there on the ground for both incidents? Do you have access to all of the information that the medical crew were providing back to...
Were you there on the ground for both incidents?

Do you have access to all of the information that the medical crew were providing back to the AMA for both instances?

Are you a medical professional or safety expert?

I for one would rather trust the medical professionals on the ground that are making the tough decisions and recommendations back to the AMA, than coming on here and second guessing their judgment calls in real time while they are on the scene.
TDeath21 wrote:
I knew it wouldn't take long for a comment like this.
Because you knew that your original question didn't hold much water?

Wink
GuyB
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1/11/2016 5:07pm
mx836 wrote:
No obstacles around him for anyone to get landed on. Laying on flat ground out of a corner. Put out the medic flag, move some tuff...
No obstacles around him for anyone to get landed on. Laying on flat ground out of a corner. Put out the medic flag, move some tuff blocks. No problem. And I'm just as concerned for Stew's health as anyone here. If you have to get the medic cart to him and crossing the track is necessary, then I understand a red flag. Just like Matthes said to Reed in the post race interview, if that was a privateer laying there instead of James, no way they throw the red flag.
You mean on the racing line. And all momentum pushes wide to where they are. Okay.



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