GET users only ones running closed loop?

The Rock
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The Rock
Edited Date/Time 5/3/2015 8:06pm
I noticed an oxygen sensor on RV's mount but couldn't quite tell if it was connected or not due to the angle in the picture. Anyone have any background please?
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Andy_Greenney 4/23/2015 4:29am
4/23/2015 4:29am
A lot of the factory bikes are running the sensor, whether for mapping or logging who knows
Jose Espana 4/23/2015 5:23am
4/23/2015 5:23am
The Vitard Nation wrote:
An O2 sensor would be indicative of open-loop EFI, i.e. monitoring AFR and adjusting accordingly.
No that's wrong , the OP has it correct .

If the ECU is adjusting fuel based upon the feedback from the 02 sensor , then that's closed loop .
The Vitard Nation 4/23/2015 5:29am
4/23/2015 5:29am
Yea, you're right. pre-coffee.

it's also possible that they are running open loop and datalogging, making changes between motos.

The Shop

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Bruce372
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Bruce372 4/23/2015 5:47am
4/23/2015 5:47am
i dont see the big deal, closed loop EFI has been around for 5 years!

Obviously the GET stuff takes it to the next level with data logging and telemetry.



and if anyone wants the setup for a suzuki 450 ive got one for sale! Smile
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 4/23/2015 5:56am
4/23/2015 5:56am
Husabergs came with it stock when they had the forward slanted engine.
philG
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philG 4/23/2015 6:10am
4/23/2015 6:10am
every one runs closed loop , mostly GET system
The Rock
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The Rock 4/23/2015 9:46am
4/23/2015 9:46am
Bruce372 wrote:
i dont see the big deal, closed loop EFI has been around for 5 years! Obviously the GET stuff takes it to the next level with...
i dont see the big deal, closed loop EFI has been around for 5 years!

Obviously the GET stuff takes it to the next level with data logging and telemetry.



and if anyone wants the setup for a suzuki 450 ive got one for sale! Smile
Wasn't implying it is a big deal just that I found it interesting since in my experience open loop was more for testing and dyno runs. Cool to see it being used in competition.
Bruce372
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Bruce372 4/23/2015 10:38am
4/23/2015 10:38am
Hey Rock, sorry if that came off with the wrong tone, that wasnt where i was trying to go.

its really interesting as to why they would run one in a race...are they using it by mapping on the fly? or are they running a set map and just gathering data during the race???

We see a lot of works bikes with the O2 bung welded on the pipe for sure, some have the O2 sensor too, but i suppose we will never know if its switched on or not.

I always ran mine with it switched on
philG
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philG 4/23/2015 11:54am
4/23/2015 11:54am
GET system that the Supermoto guys run has GPS , on the fly track map learn, live mapping and all sorts of other bits and bobs, there is a slightly lower version that allows multiple maps, but the top boys mostly run that , as it maps seperately for each gear , and even each corner if you want it to, you can alter the map to make it hook up different off road to on the tarmac too.

Thats only really supported at top level though, makes a huge difference.
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blusmbl 4/23/2015 12:08pm
4/23/2015 12:08pm
Aftermarket car EFI has been able to run closed loop using wideband O2's at a/f targets richer than stoich for several years, not surprised at all that it has finally made it over to dirtbikes. It's much less work from the calibration side to use the sensor as feedback, compared to all of the earlier streetbikes and dirtbikes that are open loop only.
BAD10
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BAD10 4/23/2015 12:14pm
4/23/2015 12:14pm Edited Date/Time 4/23/2015 12:17pm
I have my doubts its true closed loop. They would need a MAF(mass airflow) or MAP (manifold absolute Pressure) sensor which I don't think they have. The MAP is referred to as a Speed Density system.
philG
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philG 4/23/2015 2:34pm
4/23/2015 2:34pm
blusmbl wrote:
Aftermarket car EFI has been able to run closed loop using wideband O2's at a/f targets richer than stoich for several years, not surprised at all...
Aftermarket car EFI has been able to run closed loop using wideband O2's at a/f targets richer than stoich for several years, not surprised at all that it has finally made it over to dirtbikes. It's much less work from the calibration side to use the sensor as feedback, compared to all of the earlier streetbikes and dirtbikes that are open loop only.
Thats the key , if you are looking for Stoich , thats great for numbers on the dyno , but no use if you want to make track power and rideabilty.. perfect combustion is a utopia that people chase , but nothing ever went faster and used less fuel .. hitting high 10's under load is where you need to be.
The Rock
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The Rock 4/23/2015 3:06pm
4/23/2015 3:06pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Hey Rock, sorry if that came off with the wrong tone, that wasnt where i was trying to go. its really interesting as to why they...
Hey Rock, sorry if that came off with the wrong tone, that wasnt where i was trying to go.

its really interesting as to why they would run one in a race...are they using it by mapping on the fly? or are they running a set map and just gathering data during the race???

We see a lot of works bikes with the O2 bung welded on the pipe for sure, some have the O2 sensor too, but i suppose we will never know if its switched on or not.

I always ran mine with it switched on
No worries my friend. No offense taken.

I am curious as well if they are mapping on the fly which to me is the primary benefit of closed loop but I am by no means an expert.
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Rooster 4/23/2015 3:34pm
4/23/2015 3:34pm
philG wrote:
GET system that the Supermoto guys run has GPS , on the fly track map learn, live mapping and all sorts of other bits and bobs...
GET system that the Supermoto guys run has GPS , on the fly track map learn, live mapping and all sorts of other bits and bobs, there is a slightly lower version that allows multiple maps, but the top boys mostly run that , as it maps seperately for each gear , and even each corner if you want it to, you can alter the map to make it hook up different off road to on the tarmac too.

Thats only really supported at top level though, makes a huge difference.
Sounds like a great system but more than a little overboard for the average guy's race weekend.

It sounds like it would be enough work to take all the fun out of a weekend of racing.
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blusmbl 4/23/2015 3:39pm
4/23/2015 3:39pm
BAD10 wrote:
I have my doubts its true closed loop. They would need a MAF(mass airflow) or MAP (manifold absolute Pressure) sensor which I don't think they have...
I have my doubts its true closed loop. They would need a MAF(mass airflow) or MAP (manifold absolute Pressure) sensor which I don't think they have. The MAP is referred to as a Speed Density system.
You could run alpha-n which is just lookup tables based on throttle position and engine speed, and still do closed loop fuel control with O2 feedback. It's been done before.
The Rock
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The Rock 4/23/2015 4:42pm
4/23/2015 4:42pm
philG wrote:
GET system that the Supermoto guys run has GPS , on the fly track map learn, live mapping and all sorts of other bits and bobs...
GET system that the Supermoto guys run has GPS , on the fly track map learn, live mapping and all sorts of other bits and bobs, there is a slightly lower version that allows multiple maps, but the top boys mostly run that , as it maps seperately for each gear , and even each corner if you want it to, you can alter the map to make it hook up different off road to on the tarmac too.

Thats only really supported at top level though, makes a huge difference.
Rooster wrote:
Sounds like a great system but more than a little overboard for the average guy's race weekend. It sounds like it would be enough work to...
Sounds like a great system but more than a little overboard for the average guy's race weekend.

It sounds like it would be enough work to take all the fun out of a weekend of racing.
philG described the capabilities of the GET system so it obviously is intended for the serious user.

What I think is cool is what an officials shared with me at told me at A1: GET users' mechanics get a download into their smartphones as their rider pulls up next to them. They go back to the truck and have all of the lap time information without having to go to the AMA trailer or have a comm link from the truck to the AMA trailer.

It's a brave new world out there compared to filing your points to get a better spark. My mind was blown back in 2007 when I pulled into GH for the Hi Torque Publishing Ride Day and saw a car parked next t a KTM giving it a jump start. That just seemed wrong at the time but I've grown accustomed to it.

blsmbl-Not familiar with you what you describe so would love to learn more. Is this alpha-n a plug in module? Do you have to put baseline data into via test laps or ?

Question: We still have no rear wheel spin sensor data do we? Not up to speed on the Kawi launch stuff but I "assumed" it was all mapping and that data from the back wheel is not currently allowed. However I am aware of what happens when we ass u me so am looking for some light to be shed on this subject from my fellow Vital MX Forum posting bretheren.

Thanks in advance.
blusmbl
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blusmbl 4/23/2015 4:55pm
4/23/2015 4:55pm
Alpha n is a style of fuel injection control, it's not any one specific system available for motorcycles. Some of the do it yourself fuel injection kits allow you to select between alpha n and speed density. As Bad10 mentioned, speed density uses a manifold pressure sensor in addition to throttle position so the part throttle fueling accuracy and rideability is typically much better.

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SouthwestMfg
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SouthwestMfg 4/23/2015 5:04pm
4/23/2015 5:04pm Edited Date/Time 4/23/2015 6:20pm
>" Question: We still have no rear wheel spin sensor data do we? Not up to speed on the Kawi launch stuff but I "assumed" it was all mapping and that data from the back wheel is not currently allowed. However I am aware of what happens when we ass u me so am looking for some light to be shed on this subject from my fellow Vital MX Forum posting bretheren. "

Wheel speed sensor would be considered "traction" control under current rules because it is "closed loop" (US racing / AMA). Not sure if they have same rule for MXGP / FIM. Wheel speed can be calculated from engine speed and gear. So are OEM and GET EFI units only reading RPM ? What else do they monitor inside the cases ? Does anyone know ? The way I see it they are not that far away from traction control as currently defined.
Bruce372
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Bruce372 4/23/2015 5:17pm
4/23/2015 5:17pm Edited Date/Time 4/23/2015 5:24pm
maybe Traction control is allowed in the GPs????......RV sure did get a load of traction right before he looped out!

I think road race bikes use a fork position sensor as part of their traction control...not sure you could translate that to MX.????
526
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526 4/23/2015 5:54pm
4/23/2015 5:54pm
Everybody laughs at Harley Davidson but they have been doing this for 15yrs lol
The Rock
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The Rock 5/3/2015 1:15pm
5/3/2015 1:15pm
UPDATE: I spent some time with Dean Baker with JGR and like almost every time I talk to Dean I learned something. This time I learned that just because we see a lambda unit on the exhaust this doesn't equate to closed loop. In JGR's case they are only collecting data so JGR is using open loop EFI not closed loop.

ML512
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ML512 5/3/2015 1:21pm
5/3/2015 1:21pm
The Rock wrote:
UPDATE: I spent some time with Dean Baker with JGR and like almost every time I talk to Dean I learned something. This time I learned...
UPDATE: I spent some time with Dean Baker with JGR and like almost every time I talk to Dean I learned something. This time I learned that just because we see a lambda unit on the exhaust this doesn't equate to closed loop. In JGR's case they are only collecting data so JGR is using open loop EFI not closed loop.

Kawasaki had a closed loop system bike at a test I attended a few years ago. The extra onboard computer to run that thing (along with all the other sensor data on this bike) was nuts.
The Rock
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The Rock 5/3/2015 1:35pm
5/3/2015 1:35pm
Thanks for that feedback Michael. By nuts what do you mean? Big, complicated?
onenastynotch
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onenastynotch 5/3/2015 1:39pm
5/3/2015 1:39pm
blusmbl wrote:
Aftermarket car EFI has been able to run closed loop using wideband O2's at a/f targets richer than stoich for several years, not surprised at all...
Aftermarket car EFI has been able to run closed loop using wideband O2's at a/f targets richer than stoich for several years, not surprised at all that it has finally made it over to dirtbikes. It's much less work from the calibration side to use the sensor as feedback, compared to all of the earlier streetbikes and dirtbikes that are open loop only.
philG wrote:
Thats the key , if you are looking for Stoich , thats great for numbers on the dyno , but no use if you want to...
Thats the key , if you are looking for Stoich , thats great for numbers on the dyno , but no use if you want to make track power and rideabilty.. perfect combustion is a utopia that people chase , but nothing ever went faster and used less fuel .. hitting high 10's under load is where you need to be.
high 10s?great way to fuel wash a naturally aspirated engine to death.....our 1700rwhp twin turbo drag radial car runs 11.3afr out the back on 34 psi of boost.......and all the bikes I do are running 12.4 to 13.2 wide open depending on what kind of terrain they on....
The Rock
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The Rock 5/3/2015 1:50pm
5/3/2015 1:50pm
Back in the carb days an engine builder I knew insisted on ALWAYS using a sniffer when dyno-ing. As a result his bikes were jetted perfectly. I rebuilt his muffler after 35 hours on his YZ315F big bore and he'd only lost about ten percent of the packing. That YZ315F he built was one of the best bikes (a LOT of torque) I had ever ridden. I was also impressed with Tim Norton's KTM350F he built before the production models were released and it was a torque monster too.

I remained impressed with the Tim's 350 until I passed him in practice on a 300cc two stroke like he was tied to a post. CRS if it was a Husky or KTM but that started my love affair with 300cc two strokes.
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ML512 5/3/2015 2:31pm
5/3/2015 2:31pm
The Rock wrote:
Thanks for that feedback Michael. By nuts what do you mean? Big, complicated?
Yeah, it was held in a cage under the left side frame spare (blocked the view of the left side of the cylinder/cylinder head).
Jose Espana 5/3/2015 2:36pm
5/3/2015 2:36pm
blusmbl wrote:
Aftermarket car EFI has been able to run closed loop using wideband O2's at a/f targets richer than stoich for several years, not surprised at all...
Aftermarket car EFI has been able to run closed loop using wideband O2's at a/f targets richer than stoich for several years, not surprised at all that it has finally made it over to dirtbikes. It's much less work from the calibration side to use the sensor as feedback, compared to all of the earlier streetbikes and dirtbikes that are open loop only.
philG wrote:
Thats the key , if you are looking for Stoich , thats great for numbers on the dyno , but no use if you want to...
Thats the key , if you are looking for Stoich , thats great for numbers on the dyno , but no use if you want to make track power and rideabilty.. perfect combustion is a utopia that people chase , but nothing ever went faster and used less fuel .. hitting high 10's under load is where you need to be.
onenastynotch wrote:
high 10s?great way to fuel wash a naturally aspirated engine to death.....our 1700rwhp twin turbo drag radial car runs 11.3afr out the back on 34 psi...
high 10s?great way to fuel wash a naturally aspirated engine to death.....our 1700rwhp twin turbo drag radial car runs 11.3afr out the back on 34 psi of boost.......and all the bikes I do are running 12.4 to 13.2 wide open depending on what kind of terrain they on....
The key with all engine mapping , be it for max power figure or driveability characteristics is with the ignition timing , not the afr .

Once you have the afr in a basic range between about 10 to 13 to 1 , then the power output changes are pretty small with that range . Richer afr,s are only really considered for thermal issues , not for power .

Usually when mapping you will try to find the max ignition advance without knock or det , to produce the greatest torque
philG
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philG 5/3/2015 3:08pm
5/3/2015 3:08pm
onenastynotch wrote:
high 10s?great way to fuel wash a naturally aspirated engine to death.....our 1700rwhp twin turbo drag radial car runs 11.3afr out the back on 34 psi...
high 10s?great way to fuel wash a naturally aspirated engine to death.....our 1700rwhp twin turbo drag radial car runs 11.3afr out the back on 34 psi of boost.......and all the bikes I do are running 12.4 to 13.2 wide open depending on what kind of terrain they on....
Our 450 SXV Aprilia was faster in a straight line than the factory 550 with the top factory guy on it, , at the Supermoto of Nations in 2009, the guy who rode it said it was the fastest thing he'd ever ridden ( he rode a UK supported 550SXV ) and just pulled like a train out of the turns.. the riders who bought into the package my sponsor was offering all went great , until they put it on a dyno, where the dyno guy leaned it off, gained 5 to 6hp, and then they couldnt do shit with it...
Every type of racing has its demands, supermoto is the same , you need good delivery while the bike is on the side of the tyre, else it spins up and you go nowhere. The engines were built and dyno'd in Belgium and run up by Joel Smets ex mechanic, who said they were spot on , he builds sidecarcross motors that are unreal, to pretty much the same ethos.

We ran all season on the motor, it was stripped to assess it , as we had some parts in that were development and needed measuring , but we never had any issues. People that went their own way leaned them off and upped the rev limit (we actually dropped ours 250rpm at some tracks) and they died for fun, for all sorts of reasons.

I am aware of fuel washing , high 10's is under hard load , not at WOT , i didnt get to see the maps , just the laptimes,from the saddle , but when you can pass anything at will in a straight line when the other guy weighs 25 kg less there isnt a lot wrong. Your figures arent a million miles away from where we were top end, 12.4 top end is considered rich by the alleged experts here in the UK

I know with turbo's you have a whole different ball game , when i worked in WRC , we had lots of issues my buddy was the mapping guy , and turbo and wastegate control gave him fits for a while , i think it turned out to be a sensor calibration issue or a software glitch.

The GET supermoto system works because the track stays pretty much the same, i have seen tone wheels on bikes for testing , and the whole map-per-gear thing works really well , according to the guys that have it.

The telemetry side is where it has most value IMHO.. a rider we help out cant tell if he is fast or slow anywhere, but having GPS generated splits tells you if gearing changes work etc..SM is a lot easier the MX , i cant run a laptime on an MX bike within 2 seconds , let alone 2 tenths, but the top boys can. Thats why its worth it for them .

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