RC on the future of 2 strokes

ratonmacias wrote:

if the ktm and huskys were so much better they would dominate 2 stroke races like the world 2 stroke championship. i would think Sleeters bike...

if the ktm and huskys were so much better they would dominate 2 stroke races like the world 2 stroke championship. i would think Sleeters bike even has a lot mods and factory parts.

ratonmacias wrote:

if the ktm and huskys were so much better they would dominate 2 stroke races like the world 2 stroke championship. i would think Sleeters bike...

if the ktm and huskys were so much better they would dominate 2 stroke races like the world 2 stroke championship. i would think Sleeters bike even has a lot mods and factory parts.

Bearuno wrote:

This young bloke! In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost -...

This young bloke!

In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost - so when they have to start paying for their 'toys', they then give up - we still have blokes like him that really want 'it'.

He understands the economics of it, sees he should take on more of the burden himself and not just have his hand out to Mum and Dad, does the sums, and gets / builds what he can.

Thus, we may just have a 'lifer', and we bloody well need them now.

I've done the sums a fair few times over the years as to the relative affordability of bikes and wages at different times. It, generally, comes out pretty even in real (economically speaking) terms, and, of course, the bikes are so, so much more than what they ever were. But, in my youth, the early / mid 70s, I had any amount of job opportunities, and as I aged, I still had plenty of opportunities. Far more than years / generations later.

I also had a laser like focus on my sports / interests, and didn't piss my money up against the wall like so many others I knew with expensive cars, boozing / drugs and other sorts of idiocy - just the 'idiocy' of 2 wheels...........

Have to say - I didn't consider the risks of injury stopping my income when I was his age. I got hurt (through other sports) very early on, but somehow scraped by through non earning times. I shudder now at the financial risks I took. And count myself lucky things worked out for me. This young fellow has his head screwed on right.

FI2T wrote:

Great stuff on Vital today!! KTM/Husky 2 strokes aren't much or any better then old as hell kx and cr's. The Japanese would have trouble building...

Great stuff on Vital today!!
KTM/Husky 2 strokes aren't much or any better then old as hell kx and cr's.
The Japanese would have trouble building a competitive two stroke.
The Japanese would build a two stroke that would knock off the pumpkin.
Great riders can ride a really old bike fast and still be competitive.

Page 3.... Pure Gold

tek14 wrote:

Every topic more than 2 pages should have recap..

zac_k3 wrote:

what people doesn't understand is whether its a brand new two stroke or four stroke the normal person can't afford the price of a new bike...

what people doesn't understand is whether its a brand new two stroke or four stroke the normal person can't afford the price of a new bike. Being 17 I'm at the age where its time for a bigger bike and unfortunately my parents can't just go and get me a new bike, I've worked at my job for two years now and could afford the payments but God forbid I was to get hurt and not be able to work to pay for it. So I busted my ass and bought a rough rm125 and turned it into a really nice bike for half of the price of even a new yz125. So imo. manufactures bringing back two strokes will just result in the same thing that happens now.

Bearuno wrote:

This young bloke! In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost -...

This young bloke!

In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost - so when they have to start paying for their 'toys', they then give up - we still have blokes like him that really want 'it'.

He understands the economics of it, sees he should take on more of the burden himself and not just have his hand out to Mum and Dad, does the sums, and gets / builds what he can.

Thus, we may just have a 'lifer', and we bloody well need them now.

I've done the sums a fair few times over the years as to the relative affordability of bikes and wages at different times. It, generally, comes out pretty even in real (economically speaking) terms, and, of course, the bikes are so, so much more than what they ever were. But, in my youth, the early / mid 70s, I had any amount of job opportunities, and as I aged, I still had plenty of opportunities. Far more than years / generations later.

I also had a laser like focus on my sports / interests, and didn't piss my money up against the wall like so many others I knew with expensive cars, boozing / drugs and other sorts of idiocy - just the 'idiocy' of 2 wheels...........

Have to say - I didn't consider the risks of injury stopping my income when I was his age. I got hurt (through other sports) very early on, but somehow scraped by through non earning times. I shudder now at the financial risks I took. And count myself lucky things worked out for me. This young fellow has his head screwed on right.

Bearuno wrote:

This young bloke! In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost -...

This young bloke!

In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost - so when they have to start paying for their 'toys', they then give up - we still have blokes like him that really want 'it'.

He understands the economics of it, sees he should take on more of the burden himself and not just have his hand out to Mum and Dad, does the sums, and gets / builds what he can.

Thus, we may just have a 'lifer', and we bloody well need them now.

I've done the sums a fair few times over the years as to the relative affordability of bikes and wages at different times. It, generally, comes out pretty even in real (economically speaking) terms, and, of course, the bikes are so, so much more than what they ever were. But, in my youth, the early / mid 70s, I had any amount of job opportunities, and as I aged, I still had plenty of opportunities. Far more than years / generations later.

I also had a laser like focus on my sports / interests, and didn't piss my money up against the wall like so many others I knew with expensive cars, boozing / drugs and other sorts of idiocy - just the 'idiocy' of 2 wheels...........

Have to say - I didn't consider the risks of injury stopping my income when I was his age. I got hurt (through other sports) very early on, but somehow scraped by through non earning times. I shudder now at the financial risks I took. And count myself lucky things worked out for me. This young fellow has his head screwed on right.

zac_k3 wrote:

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way![img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213572/s1200_received_10202808353728055.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213573/s1200_20170811_210500.jpg[/img]

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way!

zac_k3 wrote:

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way![img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213572/s1200_received_10202808353728055.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213573/s1200_20170811_210500.jpg[/img]

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way!

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Suzuki are working on something I hear: An RMZ which has engine mounts designed so a two stroke engine will slot right in, no cutting, no...

Suzuki are working on something I hear:
An RMZ which has engine mounts designed so a two stroke engine will slot right in, no cutting, no welding. Just a 'kit' that'll allow you to swap it straight over.

Brent wrote:

Honda stated at one point they would NEVER re enter the two stroke engine market for USA products.

zac_k3 wrote:

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way![img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213572/s1200_received_10202808353728055.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213573/s1200_20170811_210500.jpg[/img]

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way!

Andy_Greenney wrote:

Back to 2 strokes? Doubtful, the japanese will be more interested in moving forward to electric...

Brent wrote:

Honda stated at one point they would NEVER re enter the two stroke engine market for USA products.

gt80rider wrote:

Yet another way they are showing they simply do not truly care about the American mc market.

Bearuno wrote:

This young bloke! In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost -...

This young bloke!

In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost - so when they have to start paying for their 'toys', they then give up - we still have blokes like him that really want 'it'.

He understands the economics of it, sees he should take on more of the burden himself and not just have his hand out to Mum and Dad, does the sums, and gets / builds what he can.

Thus, we may just have a 'lifer', and we bloody well need them now.

I've done the sums a fair few times over the years as to the relative affordability of bikes and wages at different times. It, generally, comes out pretty even in real (economically speaking) terms, and, of course, the bikes are so, so much more than what they ever were. But, in my youth, the early / mid 70s, I had any amount of job opportunities, and as I aged, I still had plenty of opportunities. Far more than years / generations later.

I also had a laser like focus on my sports / interests, and didn't piss my money up against the wall like so many others I knew with expensive cars, boozing / drugs and other sorts of idiocy - just the 'idiocy' of 2 wheels...........

Have to say - I didn't consider the risks of injury stopping my income when I was his age. I got hurt (through other sports) very early on, but somehow scraped by through non earning times. I shudder now at the financial risks I took. And count myself lucky things worked out for me. This young fellow has his head screwed on right.

zac_k3 wrote:

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way![img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213572/s1200_received_10202808353728055.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/07/213573/s1200_20170811_210500.jpg[/img]

thanks man, this is the bike. she's came a long way!

zac_k3 wrote:

Thanks for all the nice comments everyone! I'm just trying to be smart in life.

Fearo wrote:

The Japanese had a "window" to get back into 2-strokes and be competitve, but that was in 2012 or so, when Yamaha could still hold on...

The Japanese had a "window" to get back into 2-strokes and be competitve, but that was in 2012 or so, when Yamaha could still hold on for dear life with their 2-strokes and the last years of RMs and CRs were not that old.

If there's one thing the 2017 CRF450 has shown us is that even the biggest Japanese brand's flagship model can not compete with what KTM has to offer in terms of raw specifications. So how would the Japanese brands suddenly build a competitive bike to go up against a 2018 KTM SX125/250, a platform they haven't been interested in in 10 years? All while KTM and TM have been doing just as much R&D for their 2-strokes as for their 4-strokes.

H4L wrote:

I respectfully disagree. Below is a link of a guy racing a 2T at a high level on an 02 CR250r with just a Dep pipe...

I respectfully disagree. Below is a link of a guy racing a 2T at a high level on an 02 CR250r with just a Dep pipe & suspension work. Even though the bike is 15 yrs. older it is still competitive against modern 17 KTM 2T's.

https://youtu.be/A4eNJop_KC8?t=933

Also most recently a few months back Ryan Suratt on an 03 CR250r won the MTA 2 Stroke National at Glen Helen against modern KTM's, as well.

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Suzuki are working on something I hear: An RMZ which has engine mounts designed so a two stroke engine will slot right in, no cutting, no...

Suzuki are working on something I hear:
An RMZ which has engine mounts designed so a two stroke engine will slot right in, no cutting, no welding. Just a 'kit' that'll allow you to swap it straight over.

ky_savage wrote:

I've been thinking about this for a long time now. If all manufacturers would do this it would be great!

Dragoo168 wrote:

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a...

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a number of years. It shows how narrow-minded the average guy is about the industry as a whole, even if you work on the US side of things. They have plenty of R&D and engineering ability to do so should they choose, and rather than over-rate the orange and white 2T, look at how long it took them to get to where they are today, and consider that their closest Japanese competitor is an antiquated design that still gives it a run for the money, If the Japanese want to revisit the 2T market for off-road racing, they will not only do so, they'll likely knock the pumpkin and it's step-sister back down the ladder in the process. The Euro bikes are the best in a market that has little to no feasible competition, and that alone doesn't necessitate a resurgence in a market that isn't even the manufacturers in question's primary objective.

Dragoo168 wrote:

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a...

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a number of years. It shows how narrow-minded the average guy is about the industry as a whole, even if you work on the US side of things. They have plenty of R&D and engineering ability to do so should they choose, and rather than over-rate the orange and white 2T, look at how long it took them to get to where they are today, and consider that their closest Japanese competitor is an antiquated design that still gives it a run for the money, If the Japanese want to revisit the 2T market for off-road racing, they will not only do so, they'll likely knock the pumpkin and it's step-sister back down the ladder in the process. The Euro bikes are the best in a market that has little to no feasible competition, and that alone doesn't necessitate a resurgence in a market that isn't even the manufacturers in question's primary objective.

Fearo wrote:

You read that entire argument all wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike...

You read that entire argument all wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike that would be competitive with the KTM, but key word here is COULD, because they won't.

And that becomes painfully apparant when you look at a bike like the 2017/18 Honda CRF450. COULD Honda build a bike that is even lighter than the KTM, more HP, better handling? I'd bet money on it, but they don't. They don't spend enough R&D money to do so, and by doing so they painfully show that motocross bikes are just a sideshow for them. So please enlighten me, if they can't build a flagship model (450) that outspecs the KTM, how on earth would they spend the necessary R&D dollars to build 2-strokes that could compete with the KTMs?

Dragoo168 wrote:

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a...

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a number of years. It shows how narrow-minded the average guy is about the industry as a whole, even if you work on the US side of things. They have plenty of R&D and engineering ability to do so should they choose, and rather than over-rate the orange and white 2T, look at how long it took them to get to where they are today, and consider that their closest Japanese competitor is an antiquated design that still gives it a run for the money, If the Japanese want to revisit the 2T market for off-road racing, they will not only do so, they'll likely knock the pumpkin and it's step-sister back down the ladder in the process. The Euro bikes are the best in a market that has little to no feasible competition, and that alone doesn't necessitate a resurgence in a market that isn't even the manufacturers in question's primary objective.

Fearo wrote:

You read that entire argument all wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike...

You read that entire argument all wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike that would be competitive with the KTM, but key word here is COULD, because they won't.

And that becomes painfully apparant when you look at a bike like the 2017/18 Honda CRF450. COULD Honda build a bike that is even lighter than the KTM, more HP, better handling? I'd bet money on it, but they don't. They don't spend enough R&D money to do so, and by doing so they painfully show that motocross bikes are just a sideshow for them. So please enlighten me, if they can't build a flagship model (450) that outspecs the KTM, how on earth would they spend the necessary R&D dollars to build 2-strokes that could compete with the KTMs?

ratonmacias wrote:

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame...

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame with a 2000 to 2001 engine with a Keihin carb and the latest showa components.

Dragoo168 wrote:

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a...

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a number of years. It shows how narrow-minded the average guy is about the industry as a whole, even if you work on the US side of things. They have plenty of R&D and engineering ability to do so should they choose, and rather than over-rate the orange and white 2T, look at how long it took them to get to where they are today, and consider that their closest Japanese competitor is an antiquated design that still gives it a run for the money, If the Japanese want to revisit the 2T market for off-road racing, they will not only do so, they'll likely knock the pumpkin and it's step-sister back down the ladder in the process. The Euro bikes are the best in a market that has little to no feasible competition, and that alone doesn't necessitate a resurgence in a market that isn't even the manufacturers in question's primary objective.

Fearo wrote:

You read that entire argument all wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike...

You read that entire argument all wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike that would be competitive with the KTM, but key word here is COULD, because they won't.

And that becomes painfully apparant when you look at a bike like the 2017/18 Honda CRF450. COULD Honda build a bike that is even lighter than the KTM, more HP, better handling? I'd bet money on it, but they don't. They don't spend enough R&D money to do so, and by doing so they painfully show that motocross bikes are just a sideshow for them. So please enlighten me, if they can't build a flagship model (450) that outspecs the KTM, how on earth would they spend the necessary R&D dollars to build 2-strokes that could compete with the KTMs?

ratonmacias wrote:

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame...

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame with a 2000 to 2001 engine with a Keihin carb and the latest showa components.

Dragoo168 wrote:

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a...

Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a number of years. It shows how narrow-minded the average guy is about the industry as a whole, even if you work on the US side of things. They have plenty of R&D and engineering ability to do so should they choose, and rather than over-rate the orange and white 2T, look at how long it took them to get to where they are today, and consider that their closest Japanese competitor is an antiquated design that still gives it a run for the money, If the Japanese want to revisit the 2T market for off-road racing, they will not only do so, they'll likely knock the pumpkin and it's step-sister back down the ladder in the process. The Euro bikes are the best in a market that has little to no feasible competition, and that alone doesn't necessitate a resurgence in a market that isn't even the manufacturers in question's primary objective.

Fearo wrote:

You read that entire argument all wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike...

You read that entire argument all wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike that would be competitive with the KTM, but key word here is COULD, because they won't.

And that becomes painfully apparant when you look at a bike like the 2017/18 Honda CRF450. COULD Honda build a bike that is even lighter than the KTM, more HP, better handling? I'd bet money on it, but they don't. They don't spend enough R&D money to do so, and by doing so they painfully show that motocross bikes are just a sideshow for them. So please enlighten me, if they can't build a flagship model (450) that outspecs the KTM, how on earth would they spend the necessary R&D dollars to build 2-strokes that could compete with the KTMs?

ratonmacias wrote:

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame...

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame with a 2000 to 2001 engine with a Keihin carb and the latest showa components.

Fearo wrote:

You read that entire argument all wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike...

You read that entire argument all wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that any of the big 4 Japanese brand COULD produce a bike that would be competitive with the KTM, but key word here is COULD, because they won't.

And that becomes painfully apparant when you look at a bike like the 2017/18 Honda CRF450. COULD Honda build a bike that is even lighter than the KTM, more HP, better handling? I'd bet money on it, but they don't. They don't spend enough R&D money to do so, and by doing so they painfully show that motocross bikes are just a sideshow for them. So please enlighten me, if they can't build a flagship model (450) that outspecs the KTM, how on earth would they spend the necessary R&D dollars to build 2-strokes that could compete with the KTMs?

ratonmacias wrote:

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame...

Honda has all the parts to build a better 250 MX bike than KTM laying on a Warehouse collecting dust. Just build a gen 3 frame with a 2000 to 2001 engine with a Keihin carb and the latest showa components.

Fearo wrote:

I hate it when people write the following comment, but I've never found a more fitting moment to write it, so here goes:



lol.