RC on the future of 2 strokes

VxeR
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9/6/2017 4:20am
VxeR wrote:
I don't care, Husky and Ktm are the best anyway
THIS ^^
JWACK wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Good but Not the best for me. I just couldn't get comfortable on my 16 350.. It would do weird things at weird...
I respectfully disagree. Good but Not the best for me. I just couldn't get comfortable on my 16 350.. It would do weird things at weird times.
Last time I checked the 350 wasn't a 2 stroke
JWACK
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9/6/2017 4:36am
THIS ^^
JWACK wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Good but Not the best for me. I just couldn't get comfortable on my 16 350.. It would do weird things at weird...
I respectfully disagree. Good but Not the best for me. I just couldn't get comfortable on my 16 350.. It would do weird things at weird times.
VxeR wrote:
Last time I checked the 350 wasn't a 2 stroke
Great observation, I'm impressed with your fine attention to detail. How can you tell the difference?
VxeR
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9/6/2017 4:49am
JWACK wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Good but Not the best for me. I just couldn't get comfortable on my 16 350.. It would do weird things at weird...
I respectfully disagree. Good but Not the best for me. I just couldn't get comfortable on my 16 350.. It would do weird things at weird times.
VxeR wrote:
Last time I checked the 350 wasn't a 2 stroke
JWACK wrote:
Great observation, I'm impressed with your fine attention to detail. How can you tell the difference?
One gets you chicks
JWACK
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9/6/2017 4:58am
VxeR wrote:
Last time I checked the 350 wasn't a 2 stroke
JWACK wrote:
Great observation, I'm impressed with your fine attention to detail. How can you tell the difference?
VxeR wrote:
One gets you chicks
Only if your reeds are tight and your forks are pumped.

The Shop

JAFO92
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9/6/2017 5:09am

Motofinne wrote: I have a feeling that these claims are total bullshit in 9/10 cases.



I guess I would be that 1 out of 10, because if Suzuki put out an updated 2018 RM250 I would buy one soon as it hit our shores.
kott0n
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9/6/2017 5:51am
People talk about pricing with no understanding of fiat currency. The bikes didn't go up in price, we lost buying power.
Steadman
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9/6/2017 5:57am
Just saying...if any other Japanese manufacturers come to the table with a two stroke they better come with a counter balancer in the motor. It's pretty much magical. After riding (and now owning) a new gen KTM two stroke I couldn't imagine wanting to buy any other two stroke on the market (other than it's sibling Husqvarna)
mxb2
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9/6/2017 6:08am
VxeR wrote:
I don't care, Husky and Ktm are the best anyway
Motofinne wrote:
This. I rode the 2018 250 and 125. Absolutely amazing bikes. Want a really, really good 2-stroke experience? Well there you have it. Right under your...
This.

I rode the 2018 250 and 125. Absolutely amazing bikes.

Want a really, really good 2-stroke experience? Well there you have it. Right under your own nose.

It's funny how we always read people that claim that they will be outside their local dealers doors 8 in the morning the day Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki releases new 2-strokes.

I have a feeling that these claims are total bullshit in 9/10 cases.


Want a Japanese 2-stroke? Buy a Yamaha. Although i wouldn't since you can get a KTM/Husky for almost the same price, it's a joke that they charge that kind of money from bikes that have absolutely zero R&D costs(i would not want to buy a product like that). Want a more modern bike? Get a KTM or Husky. The SX 250 is maybe the best bike i have ever been on.

Exactly, easy to say. Because they know it won't happen. Plenty of other new options. Support the ones Makin current models, and maybe the other brands will see that and change their mind and build some.
GangGreen
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9/6/2017 6:26am
easydoesit wrote:
RC was interviewed on Sunday during the MXGP race. Long story short, he stated that he sees the door opening for some of the Japanese manufacturers...
RC was interviewed on Sunday during the MXGP race.
Long story short, he stated that he sees the door opening for some of the Japanese manufacturers getting back into the 2 stroke market.

Just to clarify, he didn't say it would be happening for sure. It was just his take on it.

Suzuki?
jeffro503 wrote, ” guys saying 2 strokes are dead....why make them? ". That is not the case at all. In MX , the majority has pushed them aside , but in offroad.....totally different ball game.”

Honestly, in MX, getting rid of the ill-thought and severely outdated “Double-Displacement Rule” would be a good first step, but what’s that RC guy know or done anyway? ( Joking )

Making 125cc and 250cc two stroke dirt bikes competitive again at the Professional level might even influence diminishing turn-out at the local level and the high costs of racing.

One of the guys in charge made a narrow minded comment, “We’re going to race the bikes the manufacturers make”. That’s ridiculous, the reason 250/450cc four-strokes came into existence was an ill-thought “Double-Displacement Rule” put in place by the AMA. In my opinion, nothing will change until we go back to a 125cc and 250cc National Championship.
H4L
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9/6/2017 6:42am
Fearo wrote:
The Japanese had a "window" to get back into 2-strokes and be competitve, but that was in 2012 or so, when Yamaha could still hold on...
The Japanese had a "window" to get back into 2-strokes and be competitve, but that was in 2012 or so, when Yamaha could still hold on for dear life with their 2-strokes and the last years of RMs and CRs were not that old.

If there's one thing the 2017 CRF450 has shown us is that even the biggest Japanese brand's flagship model can not compete with what KTM has to offer in terms of raw specifications. So how would the Japanese brands suddenly build a competitive bike to go up against a 2018 KTM SX125/250, a platform they haven't been interested in in 10 years? All while KTM and TM have been doing just as much R&D for their 2-strokes as for their 4-strokes.
I respectfully disagree. Below is a link of a guy racing a 2T at a high level on an 02 CR250r with just a Dep pipe & suspension work. Even though the bike is 15 yrs. older it is still competitive against modern 17 KTM 2T's.

https://youtu.be/A4eNJop_KC8?t=933

Also most recently a few months back Ryan Suratt on an 03 CR250r won the MTA 2 Stroke National at Glen Helen against modern KTM's, as well.

PEPE001
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9/6/2017 6:46am
kott0n wrote:
People talk about pricing with no understanding of fiat currency. The bikes didn't go up in price, we lost buying power.
Doesn't make any difference.
The deal is pretty simple. If i cant afford a toy like this i don't buy it new!

If the manufacturers are not producing what i am looking for i don't buy!

Motofinne
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9/6/2017 6:50am
Fearo wrote:
The Japanese had a "window" to get back into 2-strokes and be competitve, but that was in 2012 or so, when Yamaha could still hold on...
The Japanese had a "window" to get back into 2-strokes and be competitve, but that was in 2012 or so, when Yamaha could still hold on for dear life with their 2-strokes and the last years of RMs and CRs were not that old.

If there's one thing the 2017 CRF450 has shown us is that even the biggest Japanese brand's flagship model can not compete with what KTM has to offer in terms of raw specifications. So how would the Japanese brands suddenly build a competitive bike to go up against a 2018 KTM SX125/250, a platform they haven't been interested in in 10 years? All while KTM and TM have been doing just as much R&D for their 2-strokes as for their 4-strokes.
H4L wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Below is a link of a guy racing a 2T at a high level on an 02 CR250r with just a Dep pipe...
I respectfully disagree. Below is a link of a guy racing a 2T at a high level on an 02 CR250r with just a Dep pipe & suspension work. Even though the bike is 15 yrs. older it is still competitive against modern 17 KTM 2T's.

https://youtu.be/A4eNJop_KC8?t=933

Also most recently a few months back Ryan Suratt on an 03 CR250r won the MTA 2 Stroke National at Glen Helen against modern KTM's, as well.

Ryan Surratt is a pro that finished 12th in a 250 SX main this year. He could probably ride a 30 year old bike and win a local Glen Helen 2-stroke race.
H4L
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9/6/2017 6:55am
PEPE001 wrote:
Pricing is an issue! I remember in 91 bought a KX250 for around 3,500$, today a new bike is around 10K. If i do the math...
Pricing is an issue!

I remember in 91 bought a KX250 for around 3,500$, today a new bike is around 10K.

If i do the math my salary didn't increase the same way.
Above that Spending 10K for a toy being used every other weekend is hard to justify.

Back than i raced a lot today fun only.


The discussion about 2 strokes or not from Japanese Manufacturers is missing one element.

Especially those who where used to 2 strokes are a little older. I am 52 and would like to buy a new 2 Stroke from them.
Why?
Because i do have the money now and i want to have an updated 2 stroke.
Yes i could buy from KTM,Husky or TM except the TM i personally don't like KTM.
I have a YZ125 already but i would like a newer one not 11 Years old!

I guess there are a lot of old farts like me with money in a bank account and ready to spend it for a bike like this.
Meanwhile we cant buy new, we need to go used thats the reason why the used market is crazy.

But what do i have to say just thinking and never loose hope! Unsure
Yup. Like you I don't like the new KTM 2 strokes. I've ridden one & it had a decent engine, but didn't like the handling. The only thing I felt was better than an 03 CR2 owned were the brakes.

I recently picked up an 06 CR250r with very low hrs. for $2,500 since the 03 model has some hrs.. I couldn't justify paying $8,500 for a new orange or white KTM since I didn't feel it was $5K better than the 06 CR2.
H4L
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9/6/2017 7:02am Edited Date/Time 9/6/2017 7:06am
Motofinne wrote:
Ryan Surratt is a pro that finished 12th in a 250 SX main this year. He could probably ride a 30 year old bike and win...
Ryan Surratt is a pro that finished 12th in a 250 SX main this year. He could probably ride a 30 year old bike and win a local Glen Helen 2-stroke race.
Agree. The point was an older Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawi 10-15 yr. older 2T's can still be competitive against modern 17 KTM or Huskies at most levels. I raced an 03 CR2 with mods against modern 450 4t's for many yrs. up until a few yrs. back & was very competitive.
doghouse
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9/6/2017 9:00am
Falcon wrote:
I'm slowly coming to the realization that I may never buy a new bike again. The manufacturers pushed me right out of the market with 4-strokes...
I'm slowly coming to the realization that I may never buy a new bike again. The manufacturers pushed me right out of the market with 4-strokes. Don't want one, definitely don't need one. I'll just keep rebuilding my '06 YZ250.
This is me in a nutshell.
stone881
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9/6/2017 10:53am
kott0n wrote:
People talk about pricing with no understanding of fiat currency. The bikes didn't go up in price, we lost buying power.
ding ding ding...winner!

And it seems pretty obvious that the Euro bikes are going to continue to be more expensive w the current FX. Of course now may be the very best time to buy a bike for Americans, as the dollar seems doomed to become second rate currency.

I have a 2016 KTM 270 sxf that I would part with for 3 ounces of gold, or 200 ounces of silver right now.
Dragoo168
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9/6/2017 12:12pm
Its funny that people think that the Japanese couldn't produce a comparable unit to the Euros just because they haven't delved into that market for a number of years. It shows how narrow-minded the average guy is about the industry as a whole, even if you work on the US side of things. They have plenty of R&D and engineering ability to do so should they choose, and rather than over-rate the orange and white 2T, look at how long it took them to get to where they are today, and consider that their closest Japanese competitor is an antiquated design that still gives it a run for the money, If the Japanese want to revisit the 2T market for off-road racing, they will not only do so, they'll likely knock the pumpkin and it's step-sister back down the ladder in the process. The Euro bikes are the best in a market that has little to no feasible competition, and that alone doesn't necessitate a resurgence in a market that isn't even the manufacturers in question's primary objective.
Phillip_Lamb
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9/6/2017 1:00pm
mxb2 wrote:
Because it's a business for Honda, Suzuki, kawasaki.to make money. Not watch guys spend $2k on used bikes. They will just sit in the showroom with...
Because it's a business for Honda, Suzuki, kawasaki.to make money. Not watch guys spend $2k on used bikes. They will just sit in the showroom with the other bikes. If you were Honda would you produce a new smoker, knowing guys buy 2k bikes off Craigslist. Basic business
kzizok wrote:
Agreed. Ive posted these a couple of times because of the numbers and the reliability of the source (ML512, both posts pictured). There just isnt a...
Agreed.

Ive posted these a couple of times because of the numbers and the reliability of the source (ML512, both posts pictured). There just isnt a market anymore. Sure, there is the very vocal 2T crowd, there just arent many, and the numbers are shrinking. Unfortunately, demand (lack, thereof) is outweighing sound volume.

Economics:



.
jeffro503 wrote:
I don't agree with this for many reasons. Those numbers don't reflect what we see at the tracks. Alot of those guys swear by the Jap...
I don't agree with this for many reasons. Those numbers don't reflect what we see at the tracks. Alot of those guys swear by the Jap bikes...so they have to buy used. If there were newer models out there for people to buy , at a reasonable price....they would sell. Of course they don't sell many ( Yamaha ) because they don't update their bikes like Husky and KTM. Those two dominate the off-road market like nobodies business.

But when you price them at the same price as the 4 strokes? Yeah.....people will look for used ones.

these numbers are misleading. suzuki last sold 125/250 back in 2007. The economy was huge, financing was easy, and 4 strokes were the 'in' thing, just starting to grow. the major issues were that affecting the cost of riding one were only starting. 250f's were only about 3 years old(not counting the yzf). at this point guys maybe only had to do one major rebuild. rebuilding one time isnt a huge deal, but having to do it again....and again, each at 1k+, that quickly blows out your savings and quickly turns people off from the sport as you end up spending more time on rebuilds and the sidelines.

10 years later, there is a serious craving/desire for a 2 stroke bike to the point that guys are more willing to dump money into a used roached out 250 vs buying a brand new 250f/450
bayodome
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9/6/2017 1:11pm
Look, I love two-strokes too (still have one) but they're old news. Whether they come back a bit or not, they are not the future. Everyone is so caught up on all this two-stroke stuff it's getting old.



Like it or not, electric is the future. That's where OEMs should be (and probably are) putting their focus. Not on antiquated tech that's over a century old.
Radical
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9/6/2017 2:24pm
easydoesit wrote:
RC was interviewed on Sunday during the MXGP race. Long story short, he stated that he sees the door opening for some of the Japanese manufacturers...
RC was interviewed on Sunday during the MXGP race.
Long story short, he stated that he sees the door opening for some of the Japanese manufacturers getting back into the 2 stroke market.

Just to clarify, he didn't say it would be happening for sure. It was just his take on it.

Suzuki?
GangGreen wrote:
jeffro503 wrote, ” guys saying 2 strokes are dead....why make them? ". That is not the case at all. In MX , the majority has pushed...
jeffro503 wrote, ” guys saying 2 strokes are dead....why make them? ". That is not the case at all. In MX , the majority has pushed them aside , but in offroad.....totally different ball game.”

Honestly, in MX, getting rid of the ill-thought and severely outdated “Double-Displacement Rule” would be a good first step, but what’s that RC guy know or done anyway? ( Joking )

Making 125cc and 250cc two stroke dirt bikes competitive again at the Professional level might even influence diminishing turn-out at the local level and the high costs of racing.

One of the guys in charge made a narrow minded comment, “We’re going to race the bikes the manufacturers make”. That’s ridiculous, the reason 250/450cc four-strokes came into existence was an ill-thought “Double-Displacement Rule” put in place by the AMA. In my opinion, nothing will change until we go back to a 125cc and 250cc National Championship.
Agreed!

And it'll make our sport safer. Crash at faster speeds = more damage. But managing the maximum speed as technology improves like virtually every other motorsport does is another topic.

I have a 2005 YZ125 with SSS forks (2012) and an upgraded shock (2009) , almost identical to the 2018. When a new bike is no longer essentially the same exact bike as mine, I'll be glad to buy a new bike. Until then, there's no benefit to me. Yamaha needs to refresh the line. Seriously.

The Husky's look sweet too. I might need to take a closer look Smile .
kiwifan
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9/6/2017 2:31pm
Radical wrote:
Agreed! And it'll make our sport safer. Crash at faster speeds = more damage. But managing the maximum speed as technology improves like virtually every other...
Agreed!

And it'll make our sport safer. Crash at faster speeds = more damage. But managing the maximum speed as technology improves like virtually every other motorsport does is another topic.

I have a 2005 YZ125 with SSS forks (2012) and an upgraded shock (2009) , almost identical to the 2018. When a new bike is no longer essentially the same exact bike as mine, I'll be glad to buy a new bike. Until then, there's no benefit to me. Yamaha needs to refresh the line. Seriously.

The Husky's look sweet too. I might need to take a closer look Smile .
hmmm our sport safer? From my knowledge of watching 2 stroke races as a kid I saw a lot of crashes and injuries. I am not sure saying 2 strokes are safer is a valid reason for "bringing them back".

I recommend Husky, Yamaha (I doubt) will never put in the R&D to get them to a Euro level.
TXDirt
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9/6/2017 2:40pm
I believe the next big thing in off road with be a competitive and capable and reliable electric bike. Alta is on to something for sure.
geusswho
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9/6/2017 6:10pm
THIS ^^
I bought a brand new kx250, Last month, the dudebought it brand new in 2004, put regular gas and not premix in it and blew it up after only 2 hours of ride time, and just left it in his garage. One of my good buddy's just bought a 17 Ktm 250 sx, and we both agreed that my Kx 250 was as good or better in every aspect. All Ktm did was create a 10k 2 stroke, and the other OEMS were surprised to see so many people buy them. Why not start remaking old 2 strokes that they will sale for 8k when you use sale the same exact bike for 5 if not less. All Ktm is good for is raising the cost of dirt bikes. And the other Oems are following suite, and why not? Ktm is selling the shit out of there 6k ktm85's why not raise the yz85 to 6k too.
8686
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9/6/2017 6:33pm Edited Date/Time 9/6/2017 6:34pm
bayodome wrote:
Look, I love two-strokes too (still have one) but they're old news. Whether they come back a bit or not, they are not the future. Everyone...
Look, I love two-strokes too (still have one) but they're old news. Whether they come back a bit or not, they are not the future. Everyone is so caught up on all this two-stroke stuff it's getting old.



Like it or not, electric is the future. That's where OEMs should be (and probably are) putting their focus. Not on antiquated tech that's over a century old.
Electric vehicles have been around for almost two centuries.
FI2T
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9/6/2017 9:20pm
Great stuff on Vital today!!
KTM/Husky 2 strokes aren't much or any better then old as hell kx and cr's.
The Japanese would have trouble building a competitive two stroke.
The Japanese would build a two stroke that would knock off the pumpkin.
Great riders can ride a really old bike fast and still be competitive.

Page 3.... Pure Gold





ratonmacias
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9/6/2017 9:32pm
if the ktm and huskys were so much better they would dominate 2 stroke races like the world 2 stroke championship. i would think Sleeters bike even has a lot mods and factory parts.
seth505
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9/6/2017 9:52pm
geusswho wrote:
I bought a brand new kx250, Last month, the dudebought it brand new in 2004, put regular gas and not premix in it and blew it...
I bought a brand new kx250, Last month, the dudebought it brand new in 2004, put regular gas and not premix in it and blew it up after only 2 hours of ride time, and just left it in his garage. One of my good buddy's just bought a 17 Ktm 250 sx, and we both agreed that my Kx 250 was as good or better in every aspect. All Ktm did was create a 10k 2 stroke, and the other OEMS were surprised to see so many people buy them. Why not start remaking old 2 strokes that they will sale for 8k when you use sale the same exact bike for 5 if not less. All Ktm is good for is raising the cost of dirt bikes. And the other Oems are following suite, and why not? Ktm is selling the shit out of there 6k ktm85's why not raise the yz85 to 6k too.
Hahaa did you guys just ride both in a parking lot? My 2017 sx is much better than my 05 kx was. Who pays 10k? Mine was a few thousand less than that out the door.
tek14
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9/6/2017 9:55pm
FI2T wrote:
Great stuff on Vital today!! KTM/Husky 2 strokes aren't much or any better then old as hell kx and cr's. The Japanese would have trouble building...
Great stuff on Vital today!!
KTM/Husky 2 strokes aren't much or any better then old as hell kx and cr's.
The Japanese would have trouble building a competitive two stroke.
The Japanese would build a two stroke that would knock off the pumpkin.
Great riders can ride a really old bike fast and still be competitive.

Page 3.... Pure Gold





Every topic more than 2 pages should have recap..
zac_k3
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9/6/2017 10:35pm
what people doesn't understand is whether its a brand new two stroke or four stroke the normal person can't afford the price of a new bike. Being 17 I'm at the age where its time for a bigger bike and unfortunately my parents can't just go and get me a new bike, I've worked at my job for two years now and could afford the payments but God forbid I was to get hurt and not be able to work to pay for it. So I busted my ass and bought a rough rm125 and turned it into a really nice bike for half of the price of even a new yz125. So imo. manufactures bringing back two strokes will just result in the same thing that happens now.
Bearuno
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9/7/2017 1:57am Edited Date/Time 9/7/2017 1:59am
zac_k3 wrote:
what people doesn't understand is whether its a brand new two stroke or four stroke the normal person can't afford the price of a new bike...
what people doesn't understand is whether its a brand new two stroke or four stroke the normal person can't afford the price of a new bike. Being 17 I'm at the age where its time for a bigger bike and unfortunately my parents can't just go and get me a new bike, I've worked at my job for two years now and could afford the payments but God forbid I was to get hurt and not be able to work to pay for it. So I busted my ass and bought a rough rm125 and turned it into a really nice bike for half of the price of even a new yz125. So imo. manufactures bringing back two strokes will just result in the same thing that happens now.
This young bloke!

In an era where so many kids get hand outs of bikes from parents, and thus don't have an idea of cost - so when they have to start paying for their 'toys', they then give up - we still have blokes like him that really want 'it'.

He understands the economics of it, sees he should take on more of the burden himself and not just have his hand out to Mum and Dad, does the sums, and gets / builds what he can.

Thus, we may just have a 'lifer', and we bloody well need them now.

I've done the sums a fair few times over the years as to the relative affordability of bikes and wages at different times. It, generally, comes out pretty even in real (economically speaking) terms, and, of course, the bikes are so, so much more than what they ever were. But, in my youth, the early / mid 70s, I had any amount of job opportunities, and as I aged, I still had plenty of opportunities. Far more than years / generations later.

I also had a laser like focus on my sports / interests, and didn't piss my money up against the wall like so many others I knew with expensive cars, boozing / drugs and other sorts of idiocy - just the 'idiocy' of 2 wheels...........

Have to say - I didn't consider the risks of injury stopping my income when I was his age. I got hurt (through other sports) very early on, but somehow scraped by through non earning times. I shudder now at the financial risks I took. And count myself lucky things worked out for me. This young fellow has his head screwed on right.

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