Question About Medical Attention to Hahn

bullpen658
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bullpen658
Edited Date/Time 4/4/2014 7:35pm
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him in a neck brace? Who made that call and why? He turned out to have a broken neck and/or cracked skull and was clearly knocked unconscious for a bit. Isn't it (or shouldn't it be) standard operating procedure to take all safety precautions and error on the side of rider safety in those situations? Instead, he was just sitting up on the 4x4 monster truck golf cart doodad and driven off like he had just sprained his ankle.

I didn't even notice it during the race, to be honest, but a close friend that has ridden and raced for WAY longer than I have even been alive noticed it and was pretty pissed. In hindsight, I can see his point and thought I'd throw this out to the "experts" on here. I bring it up because if a mistake was made, I'd like to see it not happen again in the future.
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Hut
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Hut 3/31/2014 8:07pm
3/31/2014 8:07pm
I thought it "looked" like a precarious way to get him off the track considering he was just KOed but the one medic was helping support his arm so I assumed they were trying to keep his arm in a more comfortable position.
Socket946
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Socket946 3/31/2014 8:10pm
3/31/2014 8:10pm
I'm not a medical professional.

I have no opinion.
bullpen658
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bullpen658 3/31/2014 8:13pm
3/31/2014 8:13pm
It doesn't take rocket surgeon to know that you shouldn't move a guy around that MAY have a spinal injury.
Woobia 22
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Woobia 22 3/31/2014 8:16pm
3/31/2014 8:16pm
Yeah did look sus, I thought there wasn't much wrong with him when he sat up then he was holding arm. I think they said it was his Dad supporting him and stopping him from falling, shame as the guy had 4 more races to impress and maybe land a 450 ride, if he hasn't already got one lined up. He has surprised me with his speed and seems quicker than WP, JH ,BT GG etc so would be a good signing if like all riders stay on the bike.

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lostboy819
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lostboy819 3/31/2014 8:16pm
3/31/2014 8:16pm Edited Date/Time 3/31/2014 9:21pm
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out so maybe they know more than you do ? They are evaluating the situation and talking to him so its not like they just threw him on the back and hauled him off, some of you guys are just dumbshits.
davistld01
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davistld01 3/31/2014 8:18pm
3/31/2014 8:18pm
What's the official word on Wilbur? Is there one yet? Can someone provide a link if there is?
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GuyB 3/31/2014 8:25pm
3/31/2014 8:25pm
Bullpen, I know you're all about the Sarcastic/Smart Ass comments, but how would you have taken him out of there?

It's pretty much standard operating procedure to take them out on an Asterisk Mobile Medical mule. I watched Ryan Villopoto take the same ride when he broke his leg in STL a few years ago.
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yamaha189 3/31/2014 8:26pm
3/31/2014 8:26pm
lostboy819 wrote:
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out...
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out so maybe they know more than you do ? They are evaluating the situation and talking to him so its not like they just threw him on the back and hauled him off, some of you guys are just dumbshits.
Being an EMT student who is close to finishing class and testing for my licensure, there is no way in the field to be certain that there is a spinal injury. However, with that in mind, we are taught that whenever there is a suspicion that there could be a spinal injury that we are supposed to do full immobilization (i.e. Neck brace, spine board). I was at St. Louis and saw the crash happen. Taking into account that he hit his head not once, but twice, with one being a fairly violent whiplash I would say that there is a very high suspicion for a spinal injury.

However, as I said I am just and EMT student as of right now with hopes of becoming a firefighter/paramedic. I know for a fact that everyone on the asterisks medical crew knows a whole lot more than I do at this point, but if my instructor would have seen that crash, and that they allowed him to sit up without any spinal immobilization, she would have lost it.
Grieby54
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Grieby54 3/31/2014 8:30pm
3/31/2014 8:30pm
GuyB wrote:
Bullpen, I know you're all about the Sarcastic/Smart Ass comments, but how would you have taken him out of there? It's pretty much standard operating procedure...
Bullpen, I know you're all about the Sarcastic/Smart Ass comments, but how would you have taken him out of there?

It's pretty much standard operating procedure to take them out on an Asterisk Mobile Medical mule. I watched Ryan Villopoto take the same ride when he broke his leg in STL a few years ago.
Taking him out via mule is fine. Carrying him off the way they did - not so much. That's when you use the backboard to be safe.
500guy
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500guy 3/31/2014 8:50pm
3/31/2014 8:50pm
Those guy's are well qualified to make that decision, We have no idea what dialog they had with Will or the reasons,

Unless Will was further harmed it's a non issue
lostboy819
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lostboy819 3/31/2014 8:53pm
3/31/2014 8:53pm Edited Date/Time 3/31/2014 9:22pm
lostboy819 wrote:
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out...
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out so maybe they know more than you do ? They are evaluating the situation and talking to him so its not like they just threw him on the back and hauled him off, some of you guys are just dumbshits.
yamaha189 wrote:
Being an EMT student who is close to finishing class and testing for my licensure, there is no way in the field to be certain that...
Being an EMT student who is close to finishing class and testing for my licensure, there is no way in the field to be certain that there is a spinal injury. However, with that in mind, we are taught that whenever there is a suspicion that there could be a spinal injury that we are supposed to do full immobilization (i.e. Neck brace, spine board). I was at St. Louis and saw the crash happen. Taking into account that he hit his head not once, but twice, with one being a fairly violent whiplash I would say that there is a very high suspicion for a spinal injury.

However, as I said I am just and EMT student as of right now with hopes of becoming a firefighter/paramedic. I know for a fact that everyone on the asterisks medical crew knows a whole lot more than I do at this point, but if my instructor would have seen that crash, and that they allowed him to sit up without any spinal immobilization, she would have lost it.
That's right and that's why some people teach "your instructor" and some people do the "asterisk medical crew" Now when you get out in the real world and get some real experience under your belt then come back and you can instruct the Asterisk crew on what they are doing wrong, its not like its their first rodeo and maybe they know what they are doing, ya think ? Or you can listen to bullpen as I bet he almost finished high school.

http://asterisksuperpass.com/ammc-team/
PFitzG38
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PFitzG38 3/31/2014 8:54pm
3/31/2014 8:54pm
bullpen658 wrote:
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him...
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him in a neck brace? Who made that call and why? He turned out to have a broken neck and/or cracked skull and was clearly knocked unconscious for a bit. Isn't it (or shouldn't it be) standard operating procedure to take all safety precautions and error on the side of rider safety in those situations? Instead, he was just sitting up on the 4x4 monster truck golf cart doodad and driven off like he had just sprained his ankle.

I didn't even notice it during the race, to be honest, but a close friend that has ridden and raced for WAY longer than I have even been alive noticed it and was pretty pissed. In hindsight, I can see his point and thought I'd throw this out to the "experts" on here. I bring it up because if a mistake was made, I'd like to see it not happen again in the future.
You will NOT find a better group of people to scrape you off the track than the * med crew. PERIOD.
Next question.
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captmoto 3/31/2014 8:59pm
3/31/2014 8:59pm
500guy wrote:
Those guy's are well qualified to make that decision, We have no idea what dialog they had with Will or the reasons, Unless Will was further...
Those guy's are well qualified to make that decision, We have no idea what dialog they had with Will or the reasons,

Unless Will was further harmed it's a non issue
If it was Doc Bodnar that called it, well there's a reason they call him Doc. For "street doctors" there is a protocol for dealing with head/neck injuries.
Witnessed KO'd, does not recall incident, awake but disoriented, evidence of drugs/alcohol require spinal immobilization. We would package up patients according to the protocol and then watch a doc in the ER undo it all after a 2 minute exam. Everything we do is precautionary. The docs are the authority.
vanillaice782 3/31/2014 9:02pm
3/31/2014 9:02pm
He ended up with a fractured skull, not a broken neck and a c collar isn't going to help a fractured skull. If his neck was broken the doctors on the medic crew would have put a collar on him.
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dboivin 3/31/2014 9:11pm
3/31/2014 9:11pm
answer is pretty simple. they probably asked Wil how he wanted to leave. you guys crack me up. quit putting tard in vitard.
lostboy819
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lostboy819 3/31/2014 9:20pm
3/31/2014 9:20pm
bullpen658 wrote:
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him...
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him in a neck brace? Who made that call and why? He turned out to have a broken neck and/or cracked skull and was clearly knocked unconscious for a bit. Isn't it (or shouldn't it be) standard operating procedure to take all safety precautions and error on the side of rider safety in those situations? Instead, he was just sitting up on the 4x4 monster truck golf cart doodad and driven off like he had just sprained his ankle.

I didn't even notice it during the race, to be honest, but a close friend that has ridden and raced for WAY longer than I have even been alive noticed it and was pretty pissed. In hindsight, I can see his point and thought I'd throw this out to the "experts" on here. I bring it up because if a mistake was made, I'd like to see it not happen again in the future.
I have raced for 35 years so I guess with your logic I am a medical expert just like your friend. I wonder how long I need to ride before I am a architect or Lawyer ? LaughingLaughingLaughing
kaboom645 3/31/2014 9:24pm
3/31/2014 9:24pm
While there is protocol to handle suspected spinal/head injuries, the client/patient ALWAYS has the right to refuse various forms of treatment, i.e. if they are conscious, they can refuse the head/neck restraints.
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dean122 3/31/2014 9:26pm
3/31/2014 9:26pm
bullpen658 wrote:
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him...
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him in a neck brace? Who made that call and why? He turned out to have a broken neck and/or cracked skull and was clearly knocked unconscious for a bit. Isn't it (or shouldn't it be) standard operating procedure to take all safety precautions and error on the side of rider safety in those situations? Instead, he was just sitting up on the 4x4 monster truck golf cart doodad and driven off like he had just sprained his ankle.

I didn't even notice it during the race, to be honest, but a close friend that has ridden and raced for WAY longer than I have even been alive noticed it and was pretty pissed. In hindsight, I can see his point and thought I'd throw this out to the "experts" on here. I bring it up because if a mistake was made, I'd like to see it not happen again in the future.
First of all, before you get on your soapbox and go all high and mighty do some fucking fact checking for petes sake on the subject you brought up. There was no broken neck. Yes, I saw the and/or in your statement so before you get your panties in a wad I bring it up because you're trying to use the broken neck scenario to support your arguement. Broken humerus and clavicle and cracked skull. We do not know the severity of the cracked skull. Could be a very small fracture for all we know.

Secondly, it's not on some monster truck 4x4 looking thing. It's a bone fucking stock Kawasaki Mule which has been used for years to transport downed riders on a dirt track with many obsticles to navigate in a quick and safe manner. Way to blow shit out of porportion to once again support your weak arguement. If you've had an issue with the equipment they've been using for years, why bring it up like you were surprised. This your first time watching SX/MX?

Thirdly, Doc Bodner and his crew have nothing but the best interest of these riders and their safety in mind. He assesed the situation on the scene and made a sound decision which did not put Wil in any further jeapordy of his health.

Lastly, I hope you're not as dumb in real life.

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yz414
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yz414 3/31/2014 9:29pm
3/31/2014 9:29pm
he was crouched over with his back bent when he stopped rolling, laying him back on a board would mean even more spinal movement than just sitting him up and carring him off
EddieC
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EddieC 3/31/2014 10:21pm
3/31/2014 10:21pm
bullpen658 wrote:
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him...
Not trying to cause a shit storm but wasn't it a little unorthodox to throw Will up onto the 4x4 monster truck thing and put him in a neck brace? Who made that call and why? He turned out to have a broken neck and/or cracked skull and was clearly knocked unconscious for a bit. Isn't it (or shouldn't it be) standard operating procedure to take all safety precautions and error on the side of rider safety in those situations? Instead, he was just sitting up on the 4x4 monster truck golf cart doodad and driven off like he had just sprained his ankle.

I didn't even notice it during the race, to be honest, but a close friend that has ridden and raced for WAY longer than I have even been alive noticed it and was pretty pissed. In hindsight, I can see his point and thought I'd throw this out to the "experts" on here. I bring it up because if a mistake was made, I'd like to see it not happen again in the future.
Just wondering from where you friend was watching? Maybe he missed me, an Athletic Trainer, laying next to the rider as I relayed information to not ONE but THREE doctors who then themselves evaluated the rider. You treat an rider based on the information you have at the time of evaluation, your experience and knowledge. You name me another professional sport that has three doctors on site, all whom are not afraid to get dirty and who actually apply neck collars, back board straps and will also assist lifting a backboard. Most professional sport docs are worried about getting their italian suit dirty. Name me a doctor who actively participates in the sport they cover? All of our doctors ride on a regular basis. I mention this because you will not find a more qualified medical team to do what we do in the conditions and constraints that is professional Supercross and Motocross.

But then again I am sure you friend had a much better vantage point to make a decision.
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EddieC 3/31/2014 10:33pm
3/31/2014 10:33pm
lostboy819 wrote:
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out...
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out so maybe they know more than you do ? They are evaluating the situation and talking to him so its not like they just threw him on the back and hauled him off, some of you guys are just dumbshits.
yamaha189 wrote:
Being an EMT student who is close to finishing class and testing for my licensure, there is no way in the field to be certain that...
Being an EMT student who is close to finishing class and testing for my licensure, there is no way in the field to be certain that there is a spinal injury. However, with that in mind, we are taught that whenever there is a suspicion that there could be a spinal injury that we are supposed to do full immobilization (i.e. Neck brace, spine board). I was at St. Louis and saw the crash happen. Taking into account that he hit his head not once, but twice, with one being a fairly violent whiplash I would say that there is a very high suspicion for a spinal injury.

However, as I said I am just and EMT student as of right now with hopes of becoming a firefighter/paramedic. I know for a fact that everyone on the asterisks medical crew knows a whole lot more than I do at this point, but if my instructor would have seen that crash, and that they allowed him to sit up without any spinal immobilization, she would have lost it.
And this is why the Asterisk Mobile Medical Center was developed. Because if we left the decision making up to your instructor you would only have two riders in the main every weekend. Not because she is doing anything wrong but because she is working within her knowledge base, scope of practice and protocols. I am sure if your instructor was made aware that two orthos and an ER trauma doctor evaluated the rider on site she would be ok with it. Now if the rider upon further evaluation at the AMMC rig is determined to need further care and gets transported you bet the rider gets a c-collar and backboard.
lostboy819
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lostboy819 3/31/2014 10:39pm
3/31/2014 10:39pm
lostboy819 wrote:
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out...
What makes you think he had a spinal injury ? he was surrounded my medical personal for quite a while and they were checking him out so maybe they know more than you do ? They are evaluating the situation and talking to him so its not like they just threw him on the back and hauled him off, some of you guys are just dumbshits.
yamaha189 wrote:
Being an EMT student who is close to finishing class and testing for my licensure, there is no way in the field to be certain that...
Being an EMT student who is close to finishing class and testing for my licensure, there is no way in the field to be certain that there is a spinal injury. However, with that in mind, we are taught that whenever there is a suspicion that there could be a spinal injury that we are supposed to do full immobilization (i.e. Neck brace, spine board). I was at St. Louis and saw the crash happen. Taking into account that he hit his head not once, but twice, with one being a fairly violent whiplash I would say that there is a very high suspicion for a spinal injury.

However, as I said I am just and EMT student as of right now with hopes of becoming a firefighter/paramedic. I know for a fact that everyone on the asterisks medical crew knows a whole lot more than I do at this point, but if my instructor would have seen that crash, and that they allowed him to sit up without any spinal immobilization, she would have lost it.
EddieC wrote:
And this is why the Asterisk Mobile Medical Center was developed. Because if we left the decision making up to your instructor you would only have...
And this is why the Asterisk Mobile Medical Center was developed. Because if we left the decision making up to your instructor you would only have two riders in the main every weekend. Not because she is doing anything wrong but because she is working within her knowledge base, scope of practice and protocols. I am sure if your instructor was made aware that two orthos and an ER trauma doctor evaluated the rider on site she would be ok with it. Now if the rider upon further evaluation at the AMMC rig is determined to need further care and gets transported you bet the rider gets a c-collar and backboard.
I liked my answer better. Wink
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RedDirtDog 3/31/2014 10:44pm
3/31/2014 10:44pm
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I noticed hahn winced in pain when the mule ran over a bump, I wasn't impressed with their care thats for sure.
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JeepnMike 3/31/2014 11:09pm
3/31/2014 11:09pm
I knew Eddie would chime in on this thread.. I think the OP had a tongue in cheek start to this thread, but I learn something new every time Eddie clarifies things that happen - I appreciate the time you spend reading this muck and sharing facts and experiences with us! I know I am not the only one that listens closer when you share insight like you do, thanks.
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GuyB 3/31/2014 11:12pm
3/31/2014 11:12pm Edited Date/Time 3/31/2014 11:28pm
RedDirtDog wrote:
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I...
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I noticed hahn winced in pain when the mule ran over a bump, I wasn't impressed with their care thats for sure.
Some people need to read more and post less.
EddieC
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EddieC 3/31/2014 11:37pm
3/31/2014 11:37pm
RedDirtDog wrote:
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I...
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I noticed hahn winced in pain when the mule ran over a bump, I wasn't impressed with their care thats for sure.
You do know that we are at a Supercross track? I guess I could ask to have the Dirt Wurxs crew flatten out the track before we drive off. If this where the outdoors I might have cut you some slack.
keyboardjockey750 3/31/2014 11:44pm
3/31/2014 11:44pm Edited Date/Time 3/31/2014 11:57pm
RedDirtDog wrote:
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I...
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I noticed hahn winced in pain when the mule ran over a bump, I wasn't impressed with their care thats for sure.
GuyB wrote:
Some people need to read more and post less.
Worst ambulance ride I took was leaving a rough mx parking lot. I felt every rock and bump. I was yelling at the driver to slow down. The injuries hurt bad enough but that amplified it times 10.

That crew is first class but I was watching Wil's face as that Mule was bumping around and knew exactly what he was feeling.

Why doesn't somebody call the pulp show next week and ask Ping? Or wait he has a column, "Ask Ping"...
S.Loyer
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S.Loyer 4/1/2014 12:42am
4/1/2014 12:42am
My guess is during all the time he was down and then came too they performed a series of tests they are trained to do to check for spinal cord injuries that could prevent the way they moved him.

I would imagine they asked him if he had feeling everywhere, try to move what he could, felt up and down his spine then made the decision to pull him off the way they did. These guys aren't flaggers, all Astrik guys are trained and medically certified.
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C.Worthy 4/1/2014 2:03am
4/1/2014 2:03am
RedDirtDog wrote:
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I...
I think the guy driving the mule could of payed attention to driving around the bumps instead of blindly driving and just looking at will, I noticed hahn winced in pain when the mule ran over a bump, I wasn't impressed with their care thats for sure.
You can't be serious?
And another idiotic post from you
LoudLove
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LoudLove 4/1/2014 5:53am
4/1/2014 5:53am
The Asteriks team likely uses a standardized checklist when examining unconscious riders. Will's breathing, pupils, skin temperature, and responses to questioning can quickly and accurately ascertain the extent of his injury. A neck restraint could have provided an extra layer of protection, but with thousands of hours of experience, Doc B's team may have thought it would have posed a greater risk to his fractured humerous and other local injuries.

Concussions and loss of consciousness are an unfortunate side-effect of our sport. It's been proven that brain injuries are cumulative, and over time less impact/g-force is required for a rider to lose consciousness. Will has undoubtedly been there/done that, and combined with the Asteriks' team assessment, they acted in a safe and expeditious manner.

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