Pneumatic Valves in motocross

Ridelow
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Ridelow
Will this ever tricle down to motocross bikes?


MotoGP bikes have been testing it.. Lots of advantages compared to a normal cam setup..
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rongi#401
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rongi#401 10/20/2016 11:45pm
10/20/2016 11:45pm
what a great way to raise bike prices
kiwifan
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kiwifan 10/20/2016 11:48pm
10/20/2016 11:48pm
I think one manufacturer had a working single cylinder 4 stroke with pneumatic valves...I wonder what HP it made...I think its impractical for MX, really only for high revving engines for the likes of F1, MotoGP, etc.
Beast666
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Beast666 10/21/2016 12:03am
10/21/2016 12:03am
If riders dont want to deal with checking air pressure in there air forks do you honestly seeing them wanting to make sure the nitrogen tank is full prior to each ride?

JB 19
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JB 19 10/21/2016 12:17am
10/21/2016 12:17am
MX bikes just got fuel injection 8 years ago. I'd say it's going to be awhile on the pneumatic actuated valves.

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Andy_Greenney 10/21/2016 12:28am
10/21/2016 12:28am
Hasn't this tech been used in MotoGP for quite some time?
As said I would think this tech is more beneficial to high revving multi cylinder but if a manufacturer can find a way to sell more bikes/more profits expect to see it.
I think the double clutch seemless shift would be a much bigger advantage in mx
philG
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philG 10/21/2016 1:58am
10/21/2016 1:58am
No, it requires a compressor . and all sorts of other shizzle that an MX bike doesn't need , and its costly to a point where it would be prohibitive.

Also MX bikes don't run the RPM's for long enough for there to de that much of an advantage.

The Pneumatic valve stuff I have worked on was a PITA x10 compared to the conventional race stuff.
philG
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philG 10/21/2016 2:01am
10/21/2016 2:01am
Andy_Greenney wrote:
Hasn't this tech been used in MotoGP for quite some time? As said I would think this tech is more beneficial to high revving multi cylinder...
Hasn't this tech been used in MotoGP for quite some time?
As said I would think this tech is more beneficial to high revving multi cylinder but if a manufacturer can find a way to sell more bikes/more profits expect to see it.
I think the double clutch seemless shift would be a much bigger advantage in mx
MX guys don't even use quickshifters, why whould they want or need seamless shift?

Andy_Greenney 10/21/2016 2:34am
10/21/2016 2:34am
Andy_Greenney wrote:
Hasn't this tech been used in MotoGP for quite some time? As said I would think this tech is more beneficial to high revving multi cylinder...
Hasn't this tech been used in MotoGP for quite some time?
As said I would think this tech is more beneficial to high revving multi cylinder but if a manufacturer can find a way to sell more bikes/more profits expect to see it.
I think the double clutch seemless shift would be a much bigger advantage in mx
philG wrote:
MX guys don't even use quickshifters, why whould they want or need seamless shift?

Cutting single cylinder feels quite aggressive when it comes to quickshift, but I can see the advantage of smooth transition between gears when grip is limited. I doubt the cost/benefit would be good for the average club rider but more so than pneumatic valve.
hillbilly
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hillbilly 10/21/2016 3:06am
10/21/2016 3:06am
I want a diesel 450 with a pipe that comes up thru the seat vertically and a silencer the size of a 5 gallon bucket.
philG
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philG 10/21/2016 3:07am
10/21/2016 3:07am
Ok.. so now I managed to get the video to play, the thing still has springs WTF is the point of that?
Dtat720
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Dtat720 10/21/2016 4:13am
10/21/2016 4:13am
hillbilly wrote:
I want a diesel 450 with a pipe that comes up thru the seat vertically and a silencer the size of a 5 gallon bucket.
Those bastards have taken over high school parking lots across the south.
philG
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philG 10/21/2016 5:14am
10/21/2016 5:14am
Andy_Greenney wrote:
Hasn't this tech been used in MotoGP for quite some time? As said I would think this tech is more beneficial to high revving multi cylinder...
Hasn't this tech been used in MotoGP for quite some time?
As said I would think this tech is more beneficial to high revving multi cylinder but if a manufacturer can find a way to sell more bikes/more profits expect to see it.
I think the double clutch seemless shift would be a much bigger advantage in mx
philG wrote:
MX guys don't even use quickshifters, why whould they want or need seamless shift?

Andy_Greenney wrote:
Cutting single cylinder feels quite aggressive when it comes to quickshift, but I can see the advantage of smooth transition between gears when grip is limited...
Cutting single cylinder feels quite aggressive when it comes to quickshift, but I can see the advantage of smooth transition between gears when grip is limited. I doubt the cost/benefit would be good for the average club rider but more so than pneumatic valve.
It depends on the unit, the ones with the long arm with the microswitch are junk IMO , the ones we have used extensively are ones with the strain gauge in the lever, or with the switch in the tip. Both are great for SM but the reasons they are needed for SM don't exist in MX .
Bearuno
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Bearuno 10/21/2016 6:13am
10/21/2016 6:13am
I think, like active electronic suspension in MX, it might be already banned, or, indeed will be banned from use . That's the case with World Superbike rules - well even in MotoGP active suspension is banned. One of the 'controls' with Moto 3 is No Pneumatic valves.

One of the Classic ef ups in rule making in Moto GP was the banning of Dual Clutches - the reasoning being to keep costs down. Well, Honda have DCT tech on a few production Bikes, with about a grand on top of the price of the same model with a std gearbox. What came to pass from that rule were the 'Seamless' transmissions - that cost (just one example) satellite Honda teams, between 800,000 to 1,000,000+ Euros to just lease from Honda - so much for controlling costs............

In World Superbike, VVT tech is banned . Even with it having been around on quite a few production Bikes over a few decades now - VFR800s being what most people would be familiar with.

Suzuki's new 2017 GSXR1000 has variable cam timing on it that circumvents the WSBK rules. It is similar to the Ball and Ramp set up of the usual 2t PV actuator, or, closer, to the first Rekluse / Rekluse Pros. One of the cam sprockets is 'split', and one side of the ramps/ grooves is curved, so as the balls are 'thrown outward', the cam rotates to a different timing

I'd not be surprised at all to see Suzuki bring the same set up to the RMZs soon. It's a very simple system, that should have very real benefits. There is So Much more to come with 4ts. Hell, most of you probably have a family car / work vehicle with DFI, whilst we are still in the dark ages with throttle body injection.
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Skidaddle 10/21/2016 6:59am
10/21/2016 6:59am
Reed Valves. The original pneumatic valves.
JustMX
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JustMX 10/21/2016 9:49am
10/21/2016 9:49am
Skidaddle wrote:
Reed Valves. The original pneumatic valves.
Way too complicated due to all the moving parts involved.
zehn
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zehn 10/21/2016 11:14am
10/21/2016 11:14am
By the time that tech could be economically feasible for MX, electric bikes will have taken over.

So no, I don't think we'll ever see pneumatic valves in MX.
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colintrax 10/21/2016 11:27am
10/21/2016 11:27am
Skidaddle wrote:
Reed Valves. The original pneumatic valves.
My air compressor uses those, it must be super fast! Grinning

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Tpog496
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Tpog496 10/21/2016 11:29am
10/21/2016 11:29am
rongi#401 wrote:
what a great way to raise bike prices
You can always buy used bikes if you can't afford a new one. Some people might like the advancement of the technology in motocross bikes, if cost goes up in relation to increased performance and reliability. Disc brakes cost more than drums but that's no reason to keep making bikes with shitty brakes.
Andy_Greenney 10/21/2016 2:29pm
10/21/2016 2:29pm Edited Date/Time 10/21/2016 2:30pm
philG wrote:
It depends on the unit, the ones with the long arm with the microswitch are junk IMO , the ones we have used extensively are ones...
It depends on the unit, the ones with the long arm with the microswitch are junk IMO , the ones we have used extensively are ones with the strain gauge in the lever, or with the switch in the tip. Both are great for SM but the reasons they are needed for SM don't exist in MX .
How does it affect the 'cut' other than the timing (I guess a strain gauge is more sensitive?). Being a single cylinder you have less firing per rpm so a more noticeable cut

I'm only surmising, the only quickshift I have used is on a bmws1000rr, and that felt like an auto between gears.
Dirty Points 10/21/2016 3:15pm
10/21/2016 3:15pm Edited Date/Time 10/21/2016 3:18pm
I don't see the revs #s where they become a benefit as typically occuring in most mx usage. I could potentially see VVT making an appearance, particularly if emissions regulations stiffen.
Underground 10/21/2016 4:20pm
10/21/2016 4:20pm
Bearuno wrote:
I think, like active electronic suspension in MX, it might be already banned, or, indeed will be banned from use . That's the case with World...
I think, like active electronic suspension in MX, it might be already banned, or, indeed will be banned from use . That's the case with World Superbike rules - well even in MotoGP active suspension is banned. One of the 'controls' with Moto 3 is No Pneumatic valves.

One of the Classic ef ups in rule making in Moto GP was the banning of Dual Clutches - the reasoning being to keep costs down. Well, Honda have DCT tech on a few production Bikes, with about a grand on top of the price of the same model with a std gearbox. What came to pass from that rule were the 'Seamless' transmissions - that cost (just one example) satellite Honda teams, between 800,000 to 1,000,000+ Euros to just lease from Honda - so much for controlling costs............

In World Superbike, VVT tech is banned . Even with it having been around on quite a few production Bikes over a few decades now - VFR800s being what most people would be familiar with.

Suzuki's new 2017 GSXR1000 has variable cam timing on it that circumvents the WSBK rules. It is similar to the Ball and Ramp set up of the usual 2t PV actuator, or, closer, to the first Rekluse / Rekluse Pros. One of the cam sprockets is 'split', and one side of the ramps/ grooves is curved, so as the balls are 'thrown outward', the cam rotates to a different timing

I'd not be surprised at all to see Suzuki bring the same set up to the RMZs soon. It's a very simple system, that should have very real benefits. There is So Much more to come with 4ts. Hell, most of you probably have a family car / work vehicle with DFI, whilst we are still in the dark ages with throttle body injection.
I'm with you on VVT being the next technology brought to dirt bikes. And I'll predict only on the 250's being the biggest benefactor from a broader power band. It will all come down to the design being suitable and this ball ramp design sounds very feasible to me.
I love the VTiR on our Honda. So broad and torquey for a 2.4
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Bruce372 10/21/2016 5:44pm
10/21/2016 5:44pm
zehn wrote:
By the time that tech could be economically feasible for MX, electric bikes will have taken over. So no, I don't think we'll ever see pneumatic...
By the time that tech could be economically feasible for MX, electric bikes will have taken over.

So no, I don't think we'll ever see pneumatic valves in MX.
Bingo. And with just one moving part and 1000 hour service intervals on the electric bike it's game over.

How are the two stroke nuts gonna argue away how simple their engines are lol.

As for cost , there is one thing guaranteed with electronics is that prices come down in a hurry.
hillbilly
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hillbilly 10/21/2016 7:02pm
10/21/2016 7:02pm
There is no need to throw a bunch of techno bs at a mx bike. Everybody whines they are to fast and to expensive now.

I say throw a jug on it with a piston about the size of a gallon of paint and let it rip.
Underground 10/21/2016 7:22pm
10/21/2016 7:22pm
hillbilly wrote:
There is no need to throw a bunch of techno bs at a mx bike. Everybody whines they are to fast and to expensive now. I...
There is no need to throw a bunch of techno bs at a mx bike. Everybody whines they are to fast and to expensive now.

I say throw a jug on it with a piston about the size of a gallon of paint and let it rip.
150cc 2 strokes lites and over 300cc whatever
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kzizok 10/21/2016 9:34pm
10/21/2016 9:34pm
JustMX wrote:
Way too complicated due to all the moving parts involved.
Four stroke?
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kzizok 10/21/2016 9:36pm
10/21/2016 9:36pm
zehn wrote:
By the time that tech could be economically feasible for MX, electric bikes will have taken over. So no, I don't think we'll ever see pneumatic...
By the time that tech could be economically feasible for MX, electric bikes will have taken over.

So no, I don't think we'll ever see pneumatic valves in MX.
First thought was, is this an internal combustion improvement? If yes, then dont bother cause electric will have taken over by then.

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