Ped thread moved

APLMAN99
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12/11/2017 7:08pm
Rhino wrote:
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX...
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX amount, well, now it's a legal PED. Who's to say a real therapeutic dose is one amount or the other since everyone is different?

Same for speed, Brand name Adderall.

It's a flawed system leaving many many loopholes for legally cheating.

Some in MMA are asking for NO TUEs for anything. Period.
Also, lifetime bans if you fail.







GuyB wrote:
How would you feel about a lifetime ban if your favorite rider was the one who gets popped?
I don't know if they actually test snowmobilers for PEDs..........

Although I know that there was a court case involving domestic violence by Pauly G, so perhaps snowmobilers DO suffer a little roid rage.
KennyT
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12/11/2017 8:46pm Edited Date/Time 12/11/2017 8:47pm
danman wrote:
I'm not defending JA in any way, but he has one very valid point. There are issues that need to be dealt with. For years, there...
I'm not defending JA in any way, but he has one very valid point. There are issues that need to be dealt with.
For years, there has been talk of a Riders union. Why has this never materialized? Why are there only 5-10 guys making a decent living in the sport? Do the riders have a say in the track design(real question)? I'd love to see if where the payouts are doubled/tripled from where they are now and 20-30 guys could make a living, but until the riders and teams stand up to the promoters, that's not going to happen. This being said, I have no idea what the promoters make, but the payouts seem WAY too small when you look at a 50,000 seat stadium being sold out and the minimum ticket price is $75-$100.
As for the PED's, everyone knows they are there and they have a good testing process in place. What more can you do?
My recommendation to JA on this topic. It's fine if you are going to put proof out there of the people doing it, but you damn well better have a recommendation in place to fix the problem! It may not be a good one, but the process they have in place is the best we have right now. If you don't have a fix, you look like a little whiny snot that didn't get his way.

Just my $.02.
ACBraap wrote:
If there's a problem in the sport that JA is bringing awareness too, it's that homeschooling and betting the farm on making it as an MXer...
If there's a problem in the sport that JA is bringing awareness too, it's that homeschooling and betting the farm on making it as an MXer are poor choices for a parent to make for their children. Good things come from education, such as proper use of grammar, the ability to write clearly and persuasively, the ability to use logic and strategy, and discern fact from fiction, or learning how to research and verify facts.
I never realized the amount of spending until one of our sons worked as a mechanic for a 14-15 year old for 2 seasons. This kid was a very talented rider but he was not anywhere near winning LL titles or even getting in the top 5.

When my son was hired he left the parking lot with a 38’ custom rig, 4 bikes and a shitload of parts. Credit cards for gas, food and supplies. They hit the road and headed back East to a year round training facility that would serve as their home base for the 2 years he worked with him. My son, who was only a HS graduate with no formal teaching abilities was the kids tutor to make sure he did his “home schooling” in betweem daily workouts, riding instruction (by a drugged out ex racer) and many motos. My son would wrench relentlessly on practice bikes and order parts as needed. They missed most family get together along with Thanksgiving holidays (for some reason a major amateur race is scheduled on a major holiday weekend)

Anyway this kid fizzled our after his parents spent hundreds of thousands a year convinced that he would be the next big thing.
Rhino
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12/11/2017 10:17pm
I think with MMA there is so much obvious Ped Use and fighters getting popped all the time, some are just over it and that's why some want lifetime bans for positive tests. I guess the athlete would have to decide what risk is worth it or not.

The trainers would just move on to the next new guy.






greenmx5
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12/12/2017 6:39am
Rhino wrote:
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX...
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX amount, well, now it's a legal PED. Who's to say a real therapeutic dose is one amount or the other since everyone is different?

Same for speed, Brand name Adderall.

It's a flawed system leaving many many loopholes for legally cheating.

Some in MMA are asking for NO TUEs for anything. Period.
Also, lifetime bans if you fail.







I don't see anything wrong if the person has a prescription from a doctor. Maybe the doctor should also be questioned as well for credibility. I personally have asthma and know that if I didn't have my inhaler (which is a steroid), I would not be able to breathe after 5 minutes on the track, let alone 15 minutes + for amateur races and 30+ for pro races. All the exercise in the world wouldn't help my breathing and it's not an issue of not being physically fit. It's a disease that needs medication to be controlled.

The Shop

Rhino
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12/12/2017 7:38am Edited Date/Time 12/12/2017 7:57am
Rhino wrote:
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX...
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX amount, well, now it's a legal PED. Who's to say a real therapeutic dose is one amount or the other since everyone is different?

Same for speed, Brand name Adderall.

It's a flawed system leaving many many loopholes for legally cheating.

Some in MMA are asking for NO TUEs for anything. Period.
Also, lifetime bans if you fail.







greenmx5 wrote:
I don't see anything wrong if the person has a prescription from a doctor. Maybe the doctor should also be questioned as well for credibility. I...
I don't see anything wrong if the person has a prescription from a doctor. Maybe the doctor should also be questioned as well for credibility. I personally have asthma and know that if I didn't have my inhaler (which is a steroid), I would not be able to breathe after 5 minutes on the track, let alone 15 minutes + for amateur races and 30+ for pro races. All the exercise in the world wouldn't help my breathing and it's not an issue of not being physically fit. It's a disease that needs medication to be controlled.
Fair enough, but do they feed cows asthma meds because they have trouble breathing? Did the cows tell the doctor they have trouble breathing after 5 minutes at the feed trough?

See the problem now? It's the same problem with Speed, brand name Adderall.

That is why TUE's a BS. I have asthma. Well, not really. But the doctor goes by what I say when I say "I would not be able to breathe after 5 minutes on the track, let alone 15 minutes + for amateur races and 30+ for pro races. All the exercise in the world wouldn't help my breathing"

So now, we both can use the same asthma meds. You need some to be normal. More to be a PED. For me, its a definite PED.

Same as speed. The TUE loopholes are abused as much as the drugs.

Getting a TUE is a long drawn out process, even dealing with the WADA and USADA people, but it's not impossible.

greenmx5
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12/12/2017 7:53am
Rhino wrote:
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX...
Some asthma meds need a TUE also. Why? Because some in PED dosages, are very effective in numerous ways. If the doctor states you need XXX amount, well, now it's a legal PED. Who's to say a real therapeutic dose is one amount or the other since everyone is different?

Same for speed, Brand name Adderall.

It's a flawed system leaving many many loopholes for legally cheating.

Some in MMA are asking for NO TUEs for anything. Period.
Also, lifetime bans if you fail.







greenmx5 wrote:
I don't see anything wrong if the person has a prescription from a doctor. Maybe the doctor should also be questioned as well for credibility. I...
I don't see anything wrong if the person has a prescription from a doctor. Maybe the doctor should also be questioned as well for credibility. I personally have asthma and know that if I didn't have my inhaler (which is a steroid), I would not be able to breathe after 5 minutes on the track, let alone 15 minutes + for amateur races and 30+ for pro races. All the exercise in the world wouldn't help my breathing and it's not an issue of not being physically fit. It's a disease that needs medication to be controlled.
Rhino wrote:
Fair enough, but do they feed cows asthma meds because they have trouble breathing? Did the cows tell the doctor they have trouble breathing after 5...
Fair enough, but do they feed cows asthma meds because they have trouble breathing? Did the cows tell the doctor they have trouble breathing after 5 minutes at the feed trough?

See the problem now? It's the same problem with Speed, brand name Adderall.

That is why TUE's a BS. I have asthma. Well, not really. But the doctor goes by what I say when I say "I would not be able to breathe after 5 minutes on the track, let alone 15 minutes + for amateur races and 30+ for pro races. All the exercise in the world wouldn't help my breathing"

So now, we both can use the same asthma meds. You need some to be normal. More to be a PED. For me, its a definite PED.

Same as speed. The TUE loopholes are abused as much as the drugs.

Getting a TUE is a long drawn out process, even dealing with the WADA and USADA people, but it's not impossible.

When I was diagnosed with asthma, I took a lung function test. That determines whether the doctor prescribed me with a steroid inhaler or not. You blow into a machine as long as you can and they test the strength of your lungs. They also listen to your lungs for wheezing and other signs. You cant fake wheezing. So it wasn't really as easy as me telling them I have asthma and the doc saying okay try this inhaler. That's also where I said the doctors need to be checked for credibility as well.
Rhino
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12/12/2017 8:50am
greenmx5 wrote:
I don't see anything wrong if the person has a prescription from a doctor. Maybe the doctor should also be questioned as well for credibility. I...
I don't see anything wrong if the person has a prescription from a doctor. Maybe the doctor should also be questioned as well for credibility. I personally have asthma and know that if I didn't have my inhaler (which is a steroid), I would not be able to breathe after 5 minutes on the track, let alone 15 minutes + for amateur races and 30+ for pro races. All the exercise in the world wouldn't help my breathing and it's not an issue of not being physically fit. It's a disease that needs medication to be controlled.
Rhino wrote:
Fair enough, but do they feed cows asthma meds because they have trouble breathing? Did the cows tell the doctor they have trouble breathing after 5...
Fair enough, but do they feed cows asthma meds because they have trouble breathing? Did the cows tell the doctor they have trouble breathing after 5 minutes at the feed trough?

See the problem now? It's the same problem with Speed, brand name Adderall.

That is why TUE's a BS. I have asthma. Well, not really. But the doctor goes by what I say when I say "I would not be able to breathe after 5 minutes on the track, let alone 15 minutes + for amateur races and 30+ for pro races. All the exercise in the world wouldn't help my breathing"

So now, we both can use the same asthma meds. You need some to be normal. More to be a PED. For me, its a definite PED.

Same as speed. The TUE loopholes are abused as much as the drugs.

Getting a TUE is a long drawn out process, even dealing with the WADA and USADA people, but it's not impossible.

greenmx5 wrote:
When I was diagnosed with asthma, I took a lung function test. That determines whether the doctor prescribed me with a steroid inhaler or not. You...
When I was diagnosed with asthma, I took a lung function test. That determines whether the doctor prescribed me with a steroid inhaler or not. You blow into a machine as long as you can and they test the strength of your lungs. They also listen to your lungs for wheezing and other signs. You cant fake wheezing. So it wasn't really as easy as me telling them I have asthma and the doc saying okay try this inhaler. That's also where I said the doctors need to be checked for credibility as well.
Again, fair enough, but lots of doctors in sport are on the payroll.
The Wada people review all available info, including the patient and doctors of the patients for credibility.

For example, people get TUEs for Testosterone.
I know how to make a blood panel come back making you look like a 6 year old girl. A legit blood panel from Lab Corp or Quest. Total 3rd party. It's not hard at all. Any Bro Science gym rat and/or a competent doctor could manipulate that. It's common sense how to manipulate a blood panel.

They think this why alot of MMA guys get popped for test of some sort or the other.
They are operating with a TUE, get sloppy, and fail what would come back as a "Normal" range. Thus, why alot want TUEs abolished.

TUEs leave alot of leeway, and is an open door for cheating and manipulation.

I listened to a podcast about this specifically, and how some fighters miss making weight on purpose now.
It made sense when you look at the big picture of it all.


greenmx5
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12/12/2017 1:36pm
So are we gonna put up or shut up? All I see is a lot of barking but no bite.
GuyB
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12/12/2017 2:25pm
greenmx5 wrote:
So are we gonna put up or shut up? All I see is a lot of barking but no bite.
Beats me. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. And who's we?
SCR
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12/12/2017 4:30pm
greenmx5 wrote:
So are we gonna put up or shut up? All I see is a lot of barking but no bite.
GuyB wrote:
Beats me. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. And who's we?
I think we're waiting for a timeline. ?
greenmx5
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12/12/2017 5:38pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2017 5:38pm
greenmx5 wrote:
So are we gonna put up or shut up? All I see is a lot of barking but no bite.
GuyB wrote:
Beats me. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. And who's we?
By we I meant the Alessis. He's talked the talk but has yet to bring any real evidence to his claims. If he says he's got stuff to present, then he needs to shit or get off the pot.
ns503
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12/13/2017 3:44am
greenmx5 wrote:
So are we gonna put up or shut up? All I see is a lot of barking but no bite.
GuyB wrote:
Beats me. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. And who's we?
greenmx5 wrote:
By we I meant the Alessis. He's talked the talk but has yet to bring any real evidence to his claims. If he says he's got...
By we I meant the Alessis. He's talked the talk but has yet to bring any real evidence to his claims. If he says he's got stuff to present, then he needs to shit or get off the pot.
And if he's really going to squeeze a good one out, this is likely the last place he should do it.
12/14/2017 1:25pm
Dawg, do some self-analysis. It doesn't take years of lurking to identify your bias and preferences for which topics are OK to discuss and what is...
Dawg, do some self-analysis.

It doesn't take years of lurking to identify your bias and preferences for which topics are OK to discuss and what is off-limits.

Whether you want to admit it or not you hold a lot of power in that you (and your team) can censor one of the only online discussion forums for MX. You can discredit or reinforce a topic/user simply with a click.

I'm not saying you are controlled - I'm saying you are influenced by your own bias which, if you asking us for a timeline on, you either are unaware of or do not wish to admit in public.

GuyB wrote:
Sure, I'm biased. I dislike stupid threads that throw shade on former champs without any evidence. I also dislike know-it-all posters who think they know me...
Sure, I'm biased.

I dislike stupid threads that throw shade on former champs without any evidence.

I also dislike know-it-all posters who think they know me. Smile


For the record...in the other thread, I said that it was me who moved it, and I also explained why.
This post of mine was very stupid. Obviously I do not know you or the details of your work and my post was out of line and exceptionally disrespectful to you and everyone employed at Vital.

I sincerely apologize for making this dumb post and I want to take ownership of my having acted in a disrespectful manner.

To GuyB, and everyone else, I apologize. The things I said in that post were just... dumb.
brettmx
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12/18/2017 9:35pm
Dawg, do some self-analysis. It doesn't take years of lurking to identify your bias and preferences for which topics are OK to discuss and what is...
Dawg, do some self-analysis.

It doesn't take years of lurking to identify your bias and preferences for which topics are OK to discuss and what is off-limits.

Whether you want to admit it or not you hold a lot of power in that you (and your team) can censor one of the only online discussion forums for MX. You can discredit or reinforce a topic/user simply with a click.

I'm not saying you are controlled - I'm saying you are influenced by your own bias which, if you asking us for a timeline on, you either are unaware of or do not wish to admit in public.

GuyB wrote:
Sure, I'm biased. I dislike stupid threads that throw shade on former champs without any evidence. I also dislike know-it-all posters who think they know me...
Sure, I'm biased.

I dislike stupid threads that throw shade on former champs without any evidence.

I also dislike know-it-all posters who think they know me. Smile


For the record...in the other thread, I said that it was me who moved it, and I also explained why.
This post of mine was very stupid. Obviously I do not know you or the details of your work and my post was out of line...
This post of mine was very stupid. Obviously I do not know you or the details of your work and my post was out of line and exceptionally disrespectful to you and everyone employed at Vital.

I sincerely apologize for making this dumb post and I want to take ownership of my having acted in a disrespectful manner.

To GuyB, and everyone else, I apologize. The things I said in that post were just... dumb.
Gawd I hope you are being sarcastic. You're post was on point and well written. By burying the thread it makes it even more apparent that Davey Coombs is trying to protect his franchise.
DC
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12/19/2017 5:10am Edited Date/Time 12/19/2017 5:16am
brettmx, I don't understand how you think: Sign up here on this thread and immediately blame me for.... What?

I have no franchise to protect. We are trying to catch anyone who is cheating. However, I think it's bullshit that someone -- Jeff Alessi, you or anyone else -- would make unproven and unfounded accusations against a rider on a popular forum like this and try to taint his career, or a trainer, with zero proof. It's slander and it's unfair. Apparently, whoever moved this thread agrees.

Welcome to Vital.

[Edit: Sorry, I spilled coffee on my keyboard laughing at something awhile back and have been making typos.]

DC
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GuyB
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12/19/2017 11:04am
brettmx wrote:
Gawd I hope you are being sarcastic. You're post was on point and well written. By burying the thread it makes it even more apparent that...
Gawd I hope you are being sarcastic. You're post was on point and well written. By burying the thread it makes it even more apparent that Davey Coombs is trying to protect his franchise.
Brett, 90% or better of your posts since you've signed up have been on this topic. Might I suggest getting out and riding more, and spending less time in the Dumbgeon? Smile
brettmx
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12/19/2017 10:10pm Edited Date/Time 12/19/2017 10:11pm
DC wrote:
brettmx, I don't understand how you think: Sign up here on this thread and immediately blame me for.... What? I have no franchise to protect. We...
brettmx, I don't understand how you think: Sign up here on this thread and immediately blame me for.... What?

I have no franchise to protect. We are trying to catch anyone who is cheating. However, I think it's bullshit that someone -- Jeff Alessi, you or anyone else -- would make unproven and unfounded accusations against a rider on a popular forum like this and try to taint his career, or a trainer, with zero proof. It's slander and it's unfair. Apparently, whoever moved this thread agrees.

Welcome to Vital.

[Edit: Sorry, I spilled coffee on my keyboard laughing at something awhile back and have been making typos.]

DC
Racer X
I'd suggest you read this Wikipedia article on the unfolding of Lance Armstrong's doping if you want to see how these allegations are going to play out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lance_Armstrong_doping_allegat… It's unfortunate that it is Jeff Alessi who is the person that has jumped out of the fox hole and is running at the machine gun placement, so to speak, given his personal history. He's an easy target to attack. And don't for a second think when doping allegations become more than just allegations it isn't going to affect the sport negatively for a period of time which isn't going to be good for sponsors, advertisers, etc. It's going to impact revenues across the board, including promoters like yourself.
DC
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12/20/2017 7:18am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2017 7:19am
brettmx, so that makes it okay to trash the reputation of competitors and trainers? And I am not attacking Jeff, I am questioning the concept of guilty-until-proven-innocent, which is ridiculous. We have had "doping allegations" for some time, just like every other sport, so this is nothing new. What is new is that someone with a horrible track record and an axe to grind has to decided to make allegations about riders and teams and trainers that he's never worked with. And because it was true in cycling, people like you are assuming it to be true in moto, and expect the accused to prove it's not.

Why does a rider who quit a decade ago have to now prove that he was not cheating, because an ex-competitor, who only raced against him a half-dozen times and was never near him or any team he was on, has decided to accuse him and others all these years later? Why isn't USADA or WADA or anyone else accusing him?

And we've been through "more than allegations" when James Stewart was caught and suspended. He was the points leader of the 450 Nationals at the time (though the test came during supercross) and the best known rider in the sport. We still had "sponsors, advertisers, etc.," we just didn't have James Stewart anymore.

DC
Racer X

GoonSquad250x
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12/20/2017 7:28am
ACBraap wrote:
If there's a problem in the sport that JA is bringing awareness too, it's that homeschooling and betting the farm on making it as an MXer...
If there's a problem in the sport that JA is bringing awareness too, it's that homeschooling and betting the farm on making it as an MXer are poor choices for a parent to make for their children. Good things come from education, such as proper use of grammar, the ability to write clearly and persuasively, the ability to use logic and strategy, and discern fact from fiction, or learning how to research and verify facts.
Out of all the pages in both fake news PED threads, I can agree w/ this 100x!!!Laughing

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