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9/12/2017 4:07am
9/12/2017 4:07am
Edited Date/Time
9/12/2017 4:19am
Parity – Dutch Championship
The KNMV (Dutch Federation) has decided to change the Motocross Championship rules for 2018. All MX1 and MX2 classes will change the name. MX1 will become “450cc” and will be open for 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines (parity). MX2 will become “250cc” and will also be open for 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines (parity). All the other classes, from 50cc up to 125cc, will be exclusively 2-stroke engines.
Rinze Bremmer, KNMV: “It is important to keep the sport affordable for all the classes; the decision goes in the right direction.
Jeffrey Herlings: I think its a good decision to even up the cc for two and four strokes, also for the manufacturers”, comIn the past riders like Carmichael could be competitive with a 2 stroke but because of the development of the 4 stroke engine the difference is to big now. With this decision the two- and for strokes will be much more competitve
FIM Europe will continue also in 2018 and in the years to come to accept 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines in the successful 250cc class.
Eddie Herd, Chairman of the European Motocross Commission: “It is clear that we will go on with the concept of parity. Riders and teams will have the possibility to choose between 2-strokes and 4-strokes.”
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We have an interview with FIM’s Tony Skillington, the CMS Director, today about the changes and the possible changes for the world motocross championships in the future, not only for two strokes and 4-strokes, but also the possability of the electric motocross bikes being eventually involved
The KNMV (Dutch Federation) has decided to change the Motocross Championship rules for 2018. All MX1 and MX2 classes will change the name. MX1 will become “450cc” and will be open for 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines (parity). MX2 will become “250cc” and will also be open for 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines (parity). All the other classes, from 50cc up to 125cc, will be exclusively 2-stroke engines.
Rinze Bremmer, KNMV: “It is important to keep the sport affordable for all the classes; the decision goes in the right direction.
Jeffrey Herlings: I think its a good decision to even up the cc for two and four strokes, also for the manufacturers”, comIn the past riders like Carmichael could be competitive with a 2 stroke but because of the development of the 4 stroke engine the difference is to big now. With this decision the two- and for strokes will be much more competitve
FIM Europe will continue also in 2018 and in the years to come to accept 2-stroke as well as 4-stroke engines in the successful 250cc class.
Eddie Herd, Chairman of the European Motocross Commission: “It is clear that we will go on with the concept of parity. Riders and teams will have the possibility to choose between 2-strokes and 4-strokes.”
DEP-2016-Banner-Ad-728x90px
We have an interview with FIM’s Tony Skillington, the CMS Director, today about the changes and the possible changes for the world motocross championships in the future, not only for two strokes and 4-strokes, but also the possability of the electric motocross bikes being eventually involved
We talk to FIM’s Tony Skillington, the CMS Director, today about the changes in the Dutch Masters of Motocross (where they allow 2-strokes to race the 4-strokes), and the possible changes for the world motocross championships in the future, not only for two strokes and 4-strokes, but also the possibility of the electric motocross bikes being eventually involved.
Motocross is in a very brittle state at the moment, with the environmentalists pushing to have motocross tracks closed, and national parks off limits to motorcycles. It’s been something that has been talked about for decades, and with the electric motorcycles becoming more and more advanced, this is also something that might be implemented in the highest level of the sport sooner, rather than later.
MXLarge: There is always the two strokes versus four stroke debate. Is the sport in a good place with four strokes? Old school people like the two strokes, the four strokes are expensive, two strokes are cheaper, and now we hear in 2018, in the Dutch Masters of Motocross they will be having the two strokes against the four strokes. Can you tell me a little bit about this?
Skillington: From what I can understand Geoff, what they are going to do is, for instance in the 250 class, you have the option of racing the 250 4-stroke or the 250 2-strokes in the same race. From that point of view, it gives people an option, to test the latest technology and I am thinking KTM or Husqvarna, where you have the fuel injected 250 2-stroke available. From all reports, from this new generation 250 2-stroke are very impressive and very positive, and I am sure some teams, will be thinking this is an option at National level, without a huge commitment on a 250 4-stroke.
MXlarge: Obviously the Dutch championship (along with the Italian championship) is the premier national championship, so it’s a great place to test the waters, with strong fields.
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Skillington: Yes, I would consider one of the top four in Europe at the moment and a good testing ground for the latest generation of 250 fuel injected 2-strokes.
MXlarge: Obviously the EMX is a class with a lot of riders, and there are also 2-strokes involved. Firstly, how important is the EMX for riders when first starting up.
Skillington: I know Geoff, everyone fully understands the costs of making a 250 4-stroke competitive. The amount of money that needs to be spent to make it competitive is hugely expensive and there are many teams who do not have the funds, or the experience to make a 250 4-stroke competitive at the highest levels. While the 250 2-stroke is a simply machine, where as a father, uncle or the riders can actually work on it themselves, and they can come in with an amount of funding, with this 250 2-stroke and get a measure if this is the future for them.
MXlarge: Could there be the situation where the 250 2-stroke, the fuel injected bike, will be too good for the 4-strokes and that could bring in some confusion as to where this situation stands?
Skillington: Right now, we don’t know, but my thought process is with the latest 250 2-strokes (KTM and Husqvarna), and we haven’t seen this bike on the start gate, all I can say is the power delivery is smooth and strong and it would be interesting to see how this bike performances against the 4-strokes.
MXlarge: There is always the argument that we should go back to the 2-strokes, just 2-strokes in every level.
Skillington: To be honest, it’s hard to go back to the future and we are in the generation of the 4-stroke engines. We are also in the age where the factory 4-strokes needs a lot of money spent on it, at the highest level. I think for the average privateer team, it isn’t possible to run a 250 4-stroke factory bike, while the 2-stroke, you have the chance to have the finance to do that.
MXlarge: So, if it works in the Dutch Masters of Motocross, and it’s a success and there isn’t too much advantage from one or the other. Could we see the FIM change the rules and let both bikes race together in the Grand Prix?
Skillington: Ok, let’s look at the options for both of those bikes. As announced last year, it is possible to run the 250 2-stroke against the 250 4-stroke in the EMX class, so again, it’s about waiting to see how these new generation of 2-strokes (KTM and Husqvarna) perform. We don’t know what the other manufactures are working on in Japan. The FIM don’t know, nobody really knows. We keep an open mind and then we make a decision. I would never rule anything out, only something in, and we will be ready willing to be open minded about this.
MXLarge: What about the electric bikes, they seem to be developing quickly?
Skillington: Ok, we have been approached by a company in the USA, Alta Motors, who want to present the bike to us and speaking to our colleges at the AMA, they have also been in discussion with them about the electric bikes. To be honest, I think if we consider it, if there is enough interest, I think we need to implement the bike as a separate series, a little like the Honda 150 series. I don’t want to start creating confusion that somebody can compete on an electric bike in MX2 or MXGP, that is a long way down the road. I think it depends on the interest, and it has to be considered by FIM Europe, but we are a long way off.
MXlarge: It does seem like the future or not?
Skillington: I would agree. If you see the outrage of the internal combustion engine within Europe currently, alternative technology need to be looked at. There is another discipline out there, which is in no man’s land at the moment, is the electric mountain bike. From what we understand the international cycling federation are not interested in this, but this could be another leaf in the book of the FIM to have this machine facilitated
The Shop
Hmmm, I wonder if a manufacturer will release a 450cc two stroke?
Some interesting quotes:
Jeffrey Herlings, (2016 MX1 World Champion), “….. good decision to even up the cc for two and four strokes”
Rinze Bremmer (Dutch Federation), “ …..keep the sport affordable”
Eddie Herd (European Motocross Commission), “ ….. team will choose between 2-strokes and 4-strokes”
Skillington ". .........the 250 2-stroke is a simple machine"
MX Large " . ......we should go back to the 2-strokes, just 2-strokes in every level"
Now, in my opinion, they just need to go back to racing 125cc and 250cc, keep the 450cc for us old guys, but gradually faze them out. I think the AMA already supports equal displacement racing, except MX Sports keeps a ridiculous and severly outdated Supplemental Rule in Pro Racing called, "Double-Displacement".
Skillington: "Ok, we have been approached by a company in the USA, Alta Motors, who want to present the bike to us and speaking to our colleges at the AMA, they have also been in discussion with them about the electric bikes. "
"If you see the outrage of the internal combustion engine within Europe currently, alternative technology need to be looked at."
So if the powers in charge move at about the same rate they are moving on letting 2 strokes out of jail, over 30 years, we could see Alta's on the track by 2047 if we're still alive.
• “To keep this sport thriving, we have to find more affordable ways to get people into the sport”
• “You think it’s a good idea for a kid to go from an 80cc to the 250F?”
• “125’s and 250F’s are close in everything but affordability”
• “Cannot learn the fundamentals of motocross on a 250F”
• “Dudes are getting hurt bad” “That bike, (125cc two stroke), needs to be around”
• “Not nearly talented enough to be jumping the stuff he’s jumping”
• “Must be able carry momentum” . . .... referring to riding a 125cc two-stroke
• “I never would have been in the sport”
• “Ricky Carmichael’s parents, James Stewarts parents, if the bikes would have cost
eight grand, they never would have been in the sport”
• “Ever since they went to 4 stroke, it’s always felt a little big, a little tall, holding on for dear life”
• “Literally bulge a disk putting the thing on a stand”
Why is it that the manufactures are ok with it in other countries , but here in the states they say " no way "?
I seriously don't fucking get it , and one day I really hope we get to find out who / what is responsible for all of it.
News flash America......get on the fucking ball!
4strokes ceased needing the 2x and 1.75x capacity advantage a decade and a half ago. They ain't bloody XRs , Tts, DRs and KLXs.
Equivalency in racing has not resulted in 2_stroke dominance in any fair ruled series.
people dont get into the sport at ama national level,
and the dutch are over 10 years behind the kiwi's, we changed to this rule in 2007,
But just to pass along the "theory" as I recall it being explained by Jason Weigandt...
Honda is spending extremely large sums of money to field SX and MX teams in the AMA series'. These series run in a country of about 325 million people where dirt bikes are fairly popular.
If the AMA said "Hey Honda, we know you guys are spending a fortune to race our series, and we know you guys don't make a 150 2-stroke anymore, but we're going to let them race against your 250F at the pro level". Now there's a risk, however slight, that Honda will get beat by a 150 2-stoke on one of the greatest stages for MX/SX. That would be a serious marketing debacle.
Honda would not be happy. Suppose Honda retaliated by pulling out of the series? Suppose Suzuki and Kawasaki did the same? I think therein lies the fear. Professional racing in the USA is successful in part thanks to the participation of factory teams like Honda.
How much does Honda invest in the Dutch Masters series? What happens if a 2-stroke beats the Honda in that series? In a country of 6.5 million? Will it hurt Honda's worldwide sales numbers? Does Honda care?
This is why the AMA 500 class is often used as an example. Suzuki quit building a 500 and with Yamaha not investing in their 490, the series turned into a Honda vs Kawasaki affair. That meant if you were a sponsored Suzuki rider, you didn't race. So you had fewer "stars of the sport" lining up to race. Than meant you had fewer people showing up to watch. Eventually the series died.
It's important to have all the major factories happily involved in your series, if it is to remain a strong and relevant series.
Anyway, that's the rationale I think I heard Jason Weigandt explain. Whether or not it has legs is up for debate I suppose.
Also if we stop buying Honda we may miss their support for a while but I think the other brands support could rise from all the Honda supporters taking their money elsewhere.
Let's say Honda quits SX and outdoors with a factory team.
How is Honda going to promote sales of MX bikes in the US?
Send Roczen to the GP's? Or sponsor the NFL? Not sure how that is going to increase sales of mx bikes in the USA.
Pit Row
On a side note, when Honda quit building 2-strokes, they made it a point to say that their company philosophy was to move away from that "technology" so for them to come back would be a huge. And when you factor in Japanese culture, it makes such an about-face even more unlikely. In contrast, Kawasaki and Suzuki just quit selling them without any sort of claims or announcements. So it might be easier for one of those guys to come back.
It won't be like with the 4 strokes where your starting from scratch and have very little idea of what works. Honda and any other brand could put one out in a year, maybe a little over, and be competitive.(suzuki & kawi unite!) Lol Not to mention 2 strokes are much cheaper to create in the motor department and their current 250f frames wouldn't seem to me to need much tweaking to happily accept a 250 2 smoke engine. (That they're building to fit said frame)
If they allow equal displacement you really think it would take ktm years to put one on the box? I would say first year if a normal podium worthy guy rides one, 2nd year I have no doubt. They will have to race their way in? Have you even heard of stank dog? Lol Didn't Marshal or someone score points in the 450's last year mixing gas and while working a 9-5? Thats with half the displacement!
I would rather see both classes displacement be trimmed down about 100cc. Slow riders down, slow the tracks down, less injuries and better racing. Braap
I'm not here saying I'm right or anyone is wrong, that any of it would work for sure or it would go this way or that. I would just love to see it be attempted. Just wanted to clear that up.lol
I mailed details of the Pirelli World Challenge “Balance of Performance” to both MX Sports and Rob Dingman at the AMA. If reducing 4 stroke displacement isn’t going to happen, whoever is keeping the "Double-Displace Debacle" in place should at least do something in Professional Racing to keep 125cc and 250cc 2 strokes relevant. In the Pirelli World Challenge, cars like the Audi R8, BMW M6, Dodge Viper, Nissan GT-R, Porsche 911, McLaren 650S, specific cars add weight or reduce top RPM weekly to keep equipment and racing fair. It’s called the “Balance of Performance” initiative, BoP. Why couldn’t MX Sports do a reboot and make 4 strokes add weight? I’m not suggesting adding weight or reducing RPM max between equal displacement manufacturers, but rather use BoP to equal out 2 stroke/ 4 stroke performance. It would fix the problem REAL QUICK.
For racing to grow we need to lower the cost barrier. Maybe electric could do that long term, but for now it's 2t.
I don't much care what Honda will or won't do. My bet is they will dust off the 2T technology and return the 4T to trail bikes where they belong if became advantageous.
I wonder how much $ Yamaha and KTM/Husky need to take in market share before they pay attention.
The 250f's just really hook up and are fast these days like in the pre 2010 era it would've been a good choice to hop on a 250 2 stroke...
Isn't the fact that Honda is represented in the racing and achieves reasonable results enough for them? I've read on here recently that Yamaha sells more 450 MX bikes than any other manufacturer yet their 450's have posted less than stellar results for several years now in the US proMX scene. Maybe "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" doesn't mean much at the dealership compared to basic price, dealership quality and available contingency programs.
Seems like the manufacturers, the teams and maybe the industry supplier base get a say in the rules; not so sure about the fans. I imagine if given the "voice" most fans would be ok with two strokes, four strokes and even electrics racing together. But it'd be stupid for a manufacturer to even try with a two stroke if they can't expect to achieve reasonable results and the rules as written today don't allow that.
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