Old vs new?

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1-forty-8

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4/19/2017 11:02 AM

What do you guys think would be a harder transition, taking a great of the old era, say a Baily or Decoster in their prime and putting him in today's era, or taking a Roczen or Dungey and putting him in the 70's or 80's.

Obviously each would have there own challenges, but who do you think would have the most success, the gnarly old boys today or the current boys, taking with them the evolution of the sport and everything we now know (not just starting from scratch, as if they were always there) going back?

MX Guy

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4/19/2017 11:13 AM

Too different to compare. I could see comparing current riders to JS7, RC, RV because they're more recent than 30-40 years ago.



Acidreamer

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4/19/2017 11:30 AM

Old to new. You cant teach old dogs new tricks.

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mattyhamz2

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4/19/2017 11:30 AM

I'm gunna say it would be a harder transition current guys to go back to the 70's and 80's. Especially the 70's because the tops guys then were absolute animals. You had to be a man to hang on to those bikes. Suspension and everything on today's bikes would make for an easier transition for guys like Bailey or Decoster in my opinion.

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1-forty-8

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4/19/2017 11:39 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm gunna say it would be a harder transition current guys to go back to the 70's and 80's. Especially the 70's because the tops guys then were absolute animals. You had to be a man to hang on to those bikes. Suspension and everything on today's bikes would make for an easier transition for guys like Bailey or Decoster in my opinion.

You think it would be easier for the old boys to learn the new obstacles that the boys of today hit?

Interesting.

mark_swart

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4/19/2017 11:49 AM

It's an interesting question - too bad we don't have a time machine!

I think any of the top contemporaries would adapt quickly to the 80s bikes, at least anything after 84-ish. Those bikes were plenty capable of being ridden with modern techniques.

The 70s bikes would be more of a challenge but I expect they would figure it out.

I don't know what the learning curve would be for a Bob Hannah or the other 70s stars, but I expect they would learn. And one thing I notice with old pros from that era is that they still have serious groundspeed. If you watch 80s guys like Bailey or Lechien, just add in a scrub and some SX whoop technique and their styles would still look pretty solid now.

Overall, I'd say the modern guys would fare better, especially if you are talking SX. Outdoors you got a little glimpse of the generation clash a few years back with the Legends race at Iron Man national, the difference being those guys are in their 40s/50s instead of their prime. Still looked fast to me!

Bultaco

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4/19/2017 11:58 AM

I think it would be easier for the new guys to get on the old bikes. Knowing what can be done, even on the old machinery is a big advantage. Look at Burner (#8) on a '74 Ossa Phantom...

https://youtu.be/HSybr4czGUU?t=20

1-forty-8

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4/19/2017 12:00 PM

mark_swart wrote:

It's an interesting question - too bad we don't have a time machine!

I think any of the top contemporaries would adapt quickly to the 80s bikes, at least anything after 84-ish. Those bikes were plenty capable of being ridden with modern techniques.

The 70s bikes would be more of a challenge but I expect they would figure it out.

I don't know what the learning curve would be for a Bob Hannah or the other 70s stars, but I expect they would learn. And one thing I notice with old pros from that era is that they still have serious groundspeed. If you watch 80s guys like Bailey or Lechien, just add in a scrub and some SX whoop technique and their styles would still look pretty solid now.

Overall, I'd say the modern guys would fare better, especially if you are talking SX. Outdoors you got a little glimpse of the generation clash a few years back with the Legends race at Iron Man national, the difference being those guys are in their 40s/50s instead of their prime. Still looked fast to me!

Yeah sx is a no brainier of course.

Outdoors though would be real interesting. I think the old boys would love the advancements in the bikes but would hate the new tracks and the crazy shit they jump now. I gotta say I think the boys of today would do better, but would still struggle on those old school bikes. Especially after being spoiled with the bikes of today. But then again.. I don't think it would take long for the old boys to get used to the new tracks of today lol it's close man. It would probably just come down to the individual.

Where's DC at? He would have a good insight into this

Tim507

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4/19/2017 1:35 PM

I ride both Vintage and Modern MX. Started in the late 60's....IMO, new to old as you tend to override the old. Poor brakes and poor suspension. Sometimes I hate my vintage bike!

Germany 1975 250 CZ Centerport, laydown shocks, mikuni with reed valve, Marzocchi forks with me as the motopilot

DTHA70

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4/19/2017 5:16 PM

considering the general median level of fitness of todays riders, I would be comfortable saying that most B riders today could probably win a national if sent back to the 60s-70s

theres nobody grilling hot dogs and smoking camels between motos anymore. these dudes are well oiled machines and their techniques have evolved not ONLY with the bikes, but simply to become faster in general.

I don't think there would be much contest between todays riders and the guys back then.

Bultaco

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4/19/2017 5:50 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/19/2017 6:58 PM

Not moto. Here is an example of a modern champion on an 80 year old bike. I can't prove this statement, but I think it safe to say this motorcycle has never gone around a course faster. Truely fun to watch. Watch for the puff of smoke at 4:33. That is where the motor gives up.

https://youtu.be/gMdRyU7c9tU?t=42

cason402

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4/19/2017 5:58 PM

Give Decoster or Robert a 20 year old body, they'd open a large can a wupass on the Tomac.

mx617

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4/19/2017 8:53 PM

Where's that pic of Windham hucking the big step up on a vintage bike? Enough said, new guys have it.

bama205

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4/19/2017 9:01 PM

I know he ain that old. But I've seen the bomber on a modern bike...

He ain't slow

BMSOBx2

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4/19/2017 9:09 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/19/2017 9:09 PM

New guys couldn't hang with 45 min motos. No contest.

scott_nz

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4/19/2017 10:07 PM

BMSOBx2 wrote:

New guys couldn't hang with 45 min motos. No contest.

old guys could not keep up with the sprint for 30 minutes like they do now, they used to pace themselves for 45 minutes,

the new guys would struggle to finish races on the old bikes, as you could not ride them like they do the new bikes, something would break,

Crush

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4/19/2017 11:15 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/19/2017 11:16 PM

BMSOBx2 wrote:

New guys couldn't hang with 45 min motos. No contest.

No way. The top guys are fit enough to do more and do it again all day...

The main differences are the obvious things, the bikes and the techniques.

No way you get DeCoster from the 60s/70s and put him on a factory KTM now, and send him out in SX and he's ok. The size of the jumps, the timing, the capability of the bikes. All huge. Remember doubling was a thing at one point... quading rhythms is expected of champs now.

If you go back the other way, the bikes are a hinderance so it's self limiting, but the riders are more capable and the norm is more extreme, so they'd break the bikes trying to work out what they could do, but easier for them for sure.

If you go back to the 80s, there is more cross over.

Cheers, Crush
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swtwtwtw

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4/20/2017 3:41 AM

DTHA70 wrote:

considering the general median level of fitness of todays riders, I would be comfortable saying that most B riders today could probably win a national if sent back to the 60s-70s

theres nobody grilling hot dogs and smoking camels between motos anymore. these dudes are well oiled machines and their techniques have evolved not ONLY with the bikes, but simply to become faster in general.

I don't think there would be much contest between todays riders and the guys back then.

Har! Just a few weeks ago 51y/o Kurt Nicoll beat the local socal pro and Int racers straight up. Bailey or Decoster would still be champs today.
a side note: IMO, most guys I see racing aren't into bikes for a lifetime like this old geezer.

Crush

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4/20/2017 4:05 AM

swtwtwtw wrote:

Har! Just a few weeks ago 51y/o Kurt Nicoll beat the local socal pro and Int racers straight up. Bailey or Decoster would still be champs today.
a side note: IMO, most guys I see racing aren't into bikes for a lifetime like this old geezer.

Kurt Nicoll was 94 Vice world champ... That's pretty fucking modern era. Most of the 80s guys would cross over ok, it's only in SX that the obstacles now would seem a bit out there to them.

Further back than that, nope, different sport, literally indoors.

Cheers, Crush
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doghouse

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4/20/2017 4:54 AM

I don't think you can put SX in the conversation and have any meaningful discussion. It would have to be outdoors vs. outdoors.

Honestly, I think there would be zero difference between riders of either generation once you let them acclimate. Decoster could do any obstacle Tomac could, and Caroli could figure out how to make a vintage steed go as fast as Heikki Mikkola

Crush

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4/20/2017 6:26 AM

doghouse wrote:

I don't think you can put SX in the conversation and have any meaningful discussion. It would have to be outdoors vs. outdoors.

Honestly, I think there would be zero difference between riders of either generation once you let them acclimate. Decoster could do any obstacle Tomac could, and Caroli could figure out how to make a vintage steed go as fast as Heikki Mikkola

Yeah if they grew up doing it, of course the norm for them would be ok. But time machine? The old guys shit themselves and the new guys break stuff or win.

Cheers, Crush
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doghouse

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4/20/2017 6:28 AM

doghouse wrote:

I don't think you can put SX in the conversation and have any meaningful discussion. It would have to be outdoors vs. outdoors.

Honestly, I think there would be zero difference between riders of either generation once you let them acclimate. Decoster could do any obstacle Tomac could, and Caroli could figure out how to make a vintage steed go as fast as Heikki Mikkola

Crush wrote:

Yeah if they grew up doing it, of course the norm for them would be ok. But time machine? The old guys shit themselves and the new guys break stuff or win.

There is literally no modern motocross obstacle that is going to make the old guys shit themselves.

TheNewOriginal

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4/20/2017 6:52 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/20/2017 7:02 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

I'm gunna say it would be a harder transition current guys to go back to the 70's and 80's. Especially the 70's because the tops guys then were absolute animals. You had to be a man to hang on to those bikes. Suspension and everything on today's bikes would make for an easier transition for guys like Bailey or Decoster in my opinion.

Agree 100%. Can you imagine one of today's top guys hitting a Supercross triple on a Suzuki TM125?

Crush

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4/20/2017 6:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/20/2017 6:58 AM

doghouse wrote:

There is literally no modern motocross obstacle that is going to make the old guys shit themselves.

Shit themselves?

Blitzing 4 foot whoops. Quading rhythms and triple jumps weren't a thing when SX started in the 70s.

If they literally jumped out of Dr Who's telephone box, to A1, and watched bikes with 12 inches of suspension blitz whoops, then with no run up quad through a section and turn around and triple the baseline, it'd all be, at the very least, what the fuck, we don't do that.

Take em outside, and Larocco's leap and its many clones? I know suicide and the leap at Saddleback etc existed in the 80s, but that was a pimple on the leap's butthole... and what was there before that?

Not saying they weren't bad dudes, but it'd all be brand new and twice as big, if not more.

Cheers, Crush
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BobbyM

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4/20/2017 7:35 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/20/2017 7:44 AM

1-forty-8 wrote:

What do you guys think would be a harder transition, taking a great of the old era, say a Baily or Decoster in their prime and putting him in today's era, or taking a Roczen or Dungey and putting him in the 70's or 80's.

Obviously each would have there own challenges, but who do you think would have the most success, the gnarly old boys today or the current boys, taking with them the evolution of the sport and everything we now know (not just starting from scratch, as if they were always there) going back?

Put any of these modern racers on an actual MOTOCROSS track and they all would have a difficult time of it. There are literally no actual motocross tracks still alive today as far as I know.

2017 OAKLAND RAIDERS are SUPER BOWL bound

doghouse

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4/20/2017 7:53 AM

Crush wrote:

Yeah if they grew up doing it, of course the norm for them would be ok. But time machine? The old guys shit themselves and the new guys break stuff or win.

doghouse wrote:

There is literally no modern motocross obstacle that is going to make the old guys shit themselves.

Crush wrote:

Shit themselves?

Blitzing 4 foot whoops. Quading rhythms and triple jumps weren't a thing when SX started in the 70s.

If they literally jumped out of Dr Who's telephone box, to A1, and watched bikes with 12 inches of suspension blitz whoops, then with no run up quad through a section and turn around and triple the baseline, it'd all be, at the very least, what the fuck, we don't do that.

Take em outside, and Larocco's leap and its many clones? I know suicide and the leap at Saddleback etc existed in the 80s, but that was a pimple on the leap's butthole... and what was there before that?

Not saying they weren't bad dudes, but it'd all be brand new and twice as big, if not more.

We've already established we are only talking about the outdoors.

No, I don't think they would flinch at the leap or anything else.

newmann

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4/20/2017 7:56 AM

Never heard of a comparison such as this.

newmann

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4/20/2017 8:01 AM

1-forty-8 wrote:

What do you guys think would be a harder transition, taking a great of the old era, say a Baily or Decoster in their prime and putting him in today's era, or taking a Roczen or Dungey and putting him in the 70's or 80's.

Obviously each would have there own challenges, but who do you think would have the most success, the gnarly old boys today or the current boys, taking with them the evolution of the sport and everything we now know (not just starting from scratch, as if they were always there) going back?

BobbyM wrote:

Put any of these modern racers on an actual MOTOCROSS track and they all would have a difficult time of it. There are literally no actual motocross tracks still alive today as far as I know.

Can you even begin to imagine the crying if Barcia was in the mix here.

mx295

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4/20/2017 8:10 AM

mx617 wrote:

Where's that pic of Windham hucking the big step up on a vintage bike? Enough said, new guys have it.



My dirt bike pops wheelies!!

Motocross83

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4/20/2017 8:41 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/20/2017 8:43 AM

It'd be harder for the top riders from the 70s and 80s in their prime to transition forward onto modern equipment. The machinery was a limiting factor for everyone back then, and Tomac etc would be no different. Yes he'd be armed with modern technique and knowledge but - without at least mid 90s equipment - would be unable to effectively utilise it.

In other words the equipment would hold him check.


However fast forward to Tomac's turf and modern equipment... and there's no way, not a chance in hell, those guys would get anywhere near Eli, either indoors or out. He'd murder them every single time, even with allowance for the same adjustment period.

Basically, the better the bikes got (as we went forward in our time machine), the more Tomac would pull away.