Mike Alessi on two strokes

mb
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4/27/2016 9:47am
mb wrote:
If I buy 1 share of common stock in a company that has millions of shares, I still get a vote at the shareholders meeting.
kiwifan wrote:
AMA membership is not buying stock/shares


American MOTORCYCLIST Association

Association - A group of people organized for a joint purpose.

Let's say that the joint purpose is broadly defined as the welfare of Motorcyclists.

"Dear AMA,
As a paid member of the Association I would like to bring some concerns to your attention. I see kids coming off of 85's going straight to 250f's and dying. I see young adults quit riding after dreaming of racing professionally only to be unable to pursue their dreams due to the cost of a 250f racing program. I see new riders buying ticking time bomb 250f's, only to have the bike blow up shortly thereafter, ending their interest in riding. I have noticed the speed on the tracks has increased with 450's which has lead to more serious injuries at my local track. My local track is also fighting noise complaints on a consistent basis, which were much less prevalent 20 years ago. Local trail ride and free ride areas in my area have been closed down for the same reason. I have seen a decline in participation and fear for the wellbeing of the sport in the future.

Best regards,
-Concerned member of the Association"

Response:

Dear nobody,
We could care less about your input or suggestions. We could also care less about your local riding areas, as we obviously didn't do a thing to help. As a "member" or whatever you want to call yourself, you should familiarize yourself with our policy. Rights, riding, racing. As in, we have the right to tell you where and how you are allowed to ride and race.

You're lucky we even bothered to respond,
-The American Manufacturers Association
2T42
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4/27/2016 10:55am
2T42 wrote:
Whats the point here? Because aside from being directly relevant to the post... who wants facts about what got us all where we are today regarding...
Whats the point here?

Because aside from being directly relevant to the post... who wants facts about what got us all where we are today regarding the greed of the AMA and the Japanese bike manufacturers who by following the dollar went from trying to make the best bikes possible for the core of the sport and protecting our interests in the 70's through the early 90's to abandoning us?

Minus the higher profit for dealers per bike/service life ratio and a 157 more moving parts, what has heavier, less power per CC, more dangerous, expensive to maintain motorcycles brought the core racers and fans? I am not talking about the monster truck fan who could argue somehow that the factory with the most millions invested wins the big dome, edge of your seat, thrills and spills, who's who of social media race, but the true fan and racer/enthusiast.

Stop it with the facts and straighten that bill out!
BobPA wrote:
More dangerous? I guess you have never ridden a modern 250f...
Good point Bob. I was mainly referring to 450F vs 250 2T above. I think the 250F is way safer than a 450 in all ways and even a 250 2T in cases as it has a smoother power and less of it in stock form. A 250 2T can be fairly safe with a heavy flywheel and mild tuning.

I have raced for many years and have owned and raced every size and type of bike available today. They all have their place, but unfair rules and agendas should not eliminate the most cost effective and safest option for the average guy.

I do NOT think 250Fs are safer than the 125's that they were supposedly a match for but ended up displacing. That was a reckless cannibalistic rule to impose that even Mitch Payton had words for and I wont even start the 125 debate here as I think everyone agrees at this point. Taking a child from an 85 to a 250F is criminal. A kid on a 250F easily having the ability to do bigger jumps and go faster than his skill level compared to a 125 which forces him to learn these skills before he has the capability to hurt himself is a problem, but thats another subject. By the way, Honda tried this exact same 250F replacement of 125's thing in Carting and other sports, but it was stopped. Why was MX on board? $$ for someone.

As to whether or not the average kid with a 250F vs a 125 with a small budget and some hand tools in his garage will be riding or hanging out with his buddies drinking and broke for the rest of the summer after his bike blows up the first time, thats another story too. I agree with Jeff's comment "With a two-stroke, if you blow the engine you can drop a new piston in it and it is good to go. With a four-stroke, you pretty much have to buy a whole new motorcycle. "

The 450 has been described as dangerous by a few top pros. McGrath said it drives you into the ground and either him or Reed said it chases you down and doesn't deflect off. The 450 extra weight and power compared to the 250 2T is not only less safe, but more so the Gyro effect of the motor effectively making it feel heavier when it hits something is what causes it to be especially brutal. Irony is that the very thing that makes them track straight is what also hurts the most when getting thumped by one. I also agree with Jeff and my personal experience, "I personally like two-strokes better. I think that if racing went back to two-strokes there would be less injuries."

As far as the AMA goes, a certain someone there was criminal and stole loads of money from the members and made irresponsible decisions for the sports future and the safety of riders. For the AMA and the factories, somewhere in the 90's, making the sport better/safer and making more money took two very different paths. I was in the industry at that time and heard the "business plan" from the top down. Everyone was going to get rich and 2 strokes werent going to get us there and as a matter of fact, they would be gone for it to happen. This would be blamed on the EPA and not the "10 year plan".

I think many of the people here who are debating that the AMA can just take your money and do as they please never had an AMA card or gotten the pile of heavily pitched junk mail claiming that you must join the AMA to "Have a voice" and let us "Fight for your rights"

2T42
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4/27/2016 11:11am
Moto810 wrote:
Let's clear up something about the AMA. The AMA (Ohio) is and was advertised as a non-profit org that represents the riders! Very simple! If you...
Let's clear up something about the AMA. The AMA (Ohio) is and was advertised as a non-profit org that represents the riders! Very simple! If you joined you expected they represent the riders as a %.

Now with that said did the riders ever want the two strokes to go away and be replaced fully by 4 strokes? NO!

Sure some riders wanted a 4 stroke but at no time were riders lined up to sign anything that said ban all two strokes!


Now with that made very clear the AMA did not directly remove the two strokes but they were involved in negotiations with the bike builders to help make it happen! That is the part that was wrong! They were not looking out for the riders nor were they looking out for the sport. They were looking out for money! Any company still holding those views that two strokes are not allowed are still in that same position and we should all be aware of that fact. The AMA (Ohio) has now changed their tune! Maybe the old guard is gone who made those deals or maybe they just know they were wrong. (good for them for changing) Others have yet to change and they claim they are keeping the two stroke displacement (ban) because it is good for the sport? lol

Very true and this goes with my last paragraph in last post.

At what point is it just called Collusion?
Moto810
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4/27/2016 11:19am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2016 11:20am
I think you have a point. Our laws in the US would allow a lawsuit and or criminal charges for these actions of Collusion. The question is not was a law broken but can you get the evidence and would the Justice Department take action on it? Maybe because companies in Japan were involved and they influenced companies here to do their bidding. I am not sure anyone even brought this to the attention of the Justice Department. I was not involved in the sport at that point so maybe some older guys could expand upon those thoughts. Although I do know that if you get enough people to sign a document asking the Justice Department to investigate they normally will do so! That's my opinion on it from what I know so far.

The Shop

2T42
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4/27/2016 11:23am
Charper732 wrote:
I think you got your acronyms mixed up...Its EPA not AMA. Try running a 2-stroke anything in California and let me know how that works out...
I think you got your acronyms mixed up...Its EPA not AMA. Try running a 2-stroke anything in California and let me know how that works out for ya.
Manco wrote:
Riding a two stroke in CA works out great. Most publicly owned off road riding areas are wide open year round for any two stroke. There...
Riding a two stroke in CA works out great. Most publicly owned off road riding areas are wide open year round for any two stroke. There are some areas of public land that do see seasonal restricted use of 2003 and newer non C.A.R.B. compliant motorcycles and ATVs being ridden by CA residents. Both two AND four strokes are effected by these same rules. These restrictions do not effect riding on private land including motocross tracks open to the public which are always open to any motorcycle or ATV. Note these rules and restrictions ONLY effect CA residents. Non CA residents can ride any motorcycle or ATV in any riding area anywhere in CA any time of the year. Considering most two strokes were built and sold prior to 2003 the majority of two strokes in existence are exempt of any restriction. The handful of two strokes that do see restrictions are only restricted on a few areas of public lands at certain times of the year with only CA residents being effected.

CA's 2003 and newer non C.A.R.B. compliant restrictions seasonally effect CA residents only at some select locations, 2002 and older motorcycles and ATVs are exempt, all vehicles ridden by non residents are exempt: http://ohv.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=26294
Well put. I was not fully aware of these details.

This does go along with what I knew about closed course riding from personal experience. I have never been stopped from riding a two stroke any place I have ever been in 27 years tracks or public land. This also backs up that this whole plan was blamed on the EPA as an unquestionable authority, but was not really relevant especially at the time in order to add credibility to an agenda.
2T42
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4/27/2016 11:46am
Moto810 wrote:
I think you have a point. Our laws in the US would allow a lawsuit and or criminal charges for these actions of Collusion. The question...
I think you have a point. Our laws in the US would allow a lawsuit and or criminal charges for these actions of Collusion. The question is not was a law broken but can you get the evidence and would the Justice Department take action on it? Maybe because companies in Japan were involved and they influenced companies here to do their bidding. I am not sure anyone even brought this to the attention of the Justice Department. I was not involved in the sport at that point so maybe some older guys could expand upon those thoughts. Although I do know that if you get enough people to sign a document asking the Justice Department to investigate they normally will do so! That's my opinion on it from what I know so far.
I dont think any of us want the gubment involved in our sport or making rules for us. Can you imagine the paperwork and bureaucracy involved in just getting registered to ride? Scary.

We ALL should just do a better job of making sure the conflict of letting the fox run the hen house is not the path as it has somehow become.
agn5009
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4/27/2016 1:11pm
Yes, I can. I have a few local series. You do understand that just because you feel a certain way about something it doesn't mean that that's how the majority feels, right?

Maybe you should sue the AMA for not doing everything you want them to do. See how well that goes.

And by the way, the AMA is a business. They do whatever they need to do to make their business the best they possibly can. Just like you would do if you ran a business, right? So if the big factories are throwing the money to them then they have every right to have more say. If you pay X amount of money for your membership and Honda pays 10,000 more toward the business (AMA) shouldn't they have 10,000 more say than you?
agn5009
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4/27/2016 1:15pm
mb wrote:
If I buy 1 share of common stock in a company that has millions of shares, I still get a vote at the shareholders meeting.
Exactly. You get 1. If Honda buys 10,000 more shares than you then they should have 10,000 more say.
cslacker
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4/27/2016 3:32pm
mb wrote:
If I buy 1 share of common stock in a company that has millions of shares, I still get a vote at the shareholders meeting.
agn5009 wrote:
Exactly. You get 1. If Honda buys 10,000 more shares than you then they should have 10,000 more say.
Not really... The AMA is an organization based on a mission. "Since 1924, the AMA has protected the future of motorcycling and promoted the motorcycle lifestyle." They are a 501 C4 non-profit. They were created as an advocacy group for their members.

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/about/History.aspx

The AMA has a 12 person board of directors who make the decisions. 6 of them are elected directly by the members, 4 of them are elected by the "business members". The other 2 are nominated by a committee and voted on by members. It was designed so that the individual member is represented more so than the "business members". Doesn't seem that is how it is working in reality though.

h&m_cycle
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4/27/2016 3:58pm
cslacker wrote:
Not really... The AMA is an organization based on a mission. "Since 1924, the AMA has protected the future of motorcycling and promoted the motorcycle lifestyle."...
Not really... The AMA is an organization based on a mission. "Since 1924, the AMA has protected the future of motorcycling and promoted the motorcycle lifestyle." They are a 501 C4 non-profit. They were created as an advocacy group for their members.

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/about/History.aspx

The AMA has a 12 person board of directors who make the decisions. 6 of them are elected directly by the members, 4 of them are elected by the "business members". The other 2 are nominated by a committee and voted on by members. It was designed so that the individual member is represented more so than the "business members". Doesn't seem that is how it is working in reality though.

2T42
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4/28/2016 11:23am
Would there be anything to gain by contacting any of these people at this point?
cslacker
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4/28/2016 11:54am
Nope. The AMA doesn't run pro racing anymore.
2T42
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4/28/2016 1:58pm
Thats what I gather.

It was tempting to send some emails to that nice list of people looking out for our rights. I think MB's post above is about what we would get back. It's the funniest thing I've read in a long time but sad at the same time.
cslacker
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4/29/2016 9:52am Edited Date/Time 4/29/2016 9:53am
2T42 wrote:
Thats what I gather. It was tempting to send some emails to that nice list of people looking out for our rights. I think MB's post...
Thats what I gather.

It was tempting to send some emails to that nice list of people looking out for our rights. I think MB's post above is about what we would get back. It's the funniest thing I've read in a long time but sad at the same time.
It still wouldn't hurt to reach out to them.

Can always reach out to Davey Coombs also. I haven't seen him post much on here lately and he probably has his hands full with the outdoors starting up soon. If he wanted it to happen, it would happen...

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