Lowering the cost of MX racing

The Rock
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11/14/2013 12:44pm Edited Date/Time 11/17/2013 12:50pm
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the rider's ability improves the engine gets opened up to it's full stock potential? This still leaves the door wide open for aftermarket tuners. Could you get a 450F for Johnny or Susie but have it tuned like a 250F?

Goal would be to save families from having to buy as many bikes or at least extend the time period between purchases. I know this isn't what the manufacturers want but if you believe having a lower costs would increase participation then this might be one way to accomplish it.......or maybe it's a terrible idea.
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GrapeApe
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11/14/2013 12:46pm
Today's installment of Random Thoughts with The Rock.
Socket946
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11/14/2013 12:46pm
This is easy! Buy your kid a 125...or a 250 2 stroke. They're still competitive at a club level, are cheap to buy initially, and then also cheap to maintain.
The Rock
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11/14/2013 1:03pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2013 1:03pm
GrapeApe-Thanks for the LOL. This actually was spawned in the shifter kart thread but hey....there's a squirrel! :-)
JM485
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11/14/2013 1:07pm
I would have to agree that the two stroke would be the answer. Also, not bouncing the rev limiter off of every jump on your four stroke would probably help make the engine last longer as well.

The Shop

DavidR
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11/14/2013 1:08pm
What are the odds this turns in to the classic 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke debate? 70% of the time it happens every time.
JM485
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11/14/2013 1:10pm
DavidR wrote:
What are the odds this turns in to the classic 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke debate? 70% of the time it happens every time.
I'd be willing to bet a bike on it.
Shawn142
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11/14/2013 1:26pm
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again. Yes MX is expensive because of 4-strokes, but only marginally when you look big picture. The problem is people have lost their disposable income.
vet323
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11/14/2013 1:41pm
DavidR wrote:
What are the odds this turns in to the classic 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke debate? 70% of the time it happens every time.
JM485 wrote:
I'd be willing to bet a bike on it.
Is this bike a 2 stroke? If so, I'm in!
Choppy
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11/14/2013 1:52pm
The Rock wrote:
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the...
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the rider's ability improves the engine gets opened up to it's full stock potential? This still leaves the door wide open for aftermarket tuners. Could you get a 450F for Johnny or Susie but have it tuned like a 250F?

Goal would be to save families from having to buy as many bikes or at least extend the time period between purchases. I know this isn't what the manufacturers want but if you believe having a lower costs would increase participation then this might be one way to accomplish it.......or maybe it's a terrible idea.
Don't we already have that? Two-stroke classes,(most of the tracks I go to have them) then as you get faster you get engine work done? As you get more serious in the sport you then buy a 4-stroke if you want.
scott_nz
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11/14/2013 2:00pm
Shawn142 wrote:
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again...
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again. Yes MX is expensive because of 4-strokes, but only marginally when you look big picture. The problem is people have lost their disposable income.
don't bring common sense into this argument,

you know its Honda and those other evil japanese manufactures fault,
scott_nz
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11/14/2013 2:01pm
The Rock wrote:
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the...
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the rider's ability improves the engine gets opened up to it's full stock potential? This still leaves the door wide open for aftermarket tuners. Could you get a 450F for Johnny or Susie but have it tuned like a 250F?

Goal would be to save families from having to buy as many bikes or at least extend the time period between purchases. I know this isn't what the manufacturers want but if you believe having a lower costs would increase participation then this might be one way to accomplish it.......or maybe it's a terrible idea.
something as simple as a rev limiter may do the same thing,

if 250F's were limited to say 12000rpm it may help, alot of car racing around the world has similar rules,
11/14/2013 2:08pm
The Rock wrote:
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the...
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the rider's ability improves the engine gets opened up to it's full stock potential? This still leaves the door wide open for aftermarket tuners. Could you get a 450F for Johnny or Susie but have it tuned like a 250F?

Goal would be to save families from having to buy as many bikes or at least extend the time period between purchases. I know this isn't what the manufacturers want but if you believe having a lower costs would increase participation then this might be one way to accomplish it.......or maybe it's a terrible idea.
scott_nz wrote:
something as simple as a rev limiter may do the same thing, if 250F's were limited to say 12000rpm it may help, alot of car racing...
something as simple as a rev limiter may do the same thing,

if 250F's were limited to say 12000rpm it may help, alot of car racing around the world has similar rules,
Go back to two strokes. 60% reduction in running cost 50% reduction in Mods/development cost in one movement, teams could run with less staff and more riders and because racing is cheeper you will get have more riders racing.....
Paul333
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11/14/2013 2:14pm
How would this save money? As an old vet just back into riding & racing I don't see much difference from 15-20 years ago. Sure the bikes cost more, but so does everything else in my life.

I honestly don't see how buying a 450 and then spending money to detune it makes things any cheaper.

Hint; I see fast guys on 5-10 year old bikes all the time. They buy them used, take care of them and just focus on riding & racing. MX more than ever is a sport of "It's the Singer not the Song".

None of us at the local level are out riding a 250 two-stroke, or 250 or 450 four stroke even if they are a few years old.
11/14/2013 2:27pm
Why would putting a rev limiter or anything else that would slow down a bike lower the price? The bike costs are the main problem when it comes to getting new racers to show up. Maybe a class of entry level bikes (just what we need more classes) could be an answer. Limit the suspension and technology or a MSRP.
hvaughn88
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11/14/2013 2:27pm
Shawn142 wrote:
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again...
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again. Yes MX is expensive because of 4-strokes, but only marginally when you look big picture. The problem is people have lost their disposable income.
This seems to make the most sense. It seems like people don't bitch about the cost of things as much when they have more disposable income. Somewhat of an inverse relationship: disposable income goes up, bitching about costs goes down. This is definitely not groundbreaking or new.
Tracktor
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11/14/2013 2:38pm
The Rock wrote:
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the...
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the rider's ability improves the engine gets opened up to it's full stock potential? This still leaves the door wide open for aftermarket tuners. Could you get a 450F for Johnny or Susie but have it tuned like a 250F?

Goal would be to save families from having to buy as many bikes or at least extend the time period between purchases. I know this isn't what the manufacturers want but if you believe having a lower costs would increase participation then this might be one way to accomplish it.......or maybe it's a terrible idea.
scott_nz wrote:
something as simple as a rev limiter may do the same thing, if 250F's were limited to say 12000rpm it may help, alot of car racing...
something as simple as a rev limiter may do the same thing,

if 250F's were limited to say 12000rpm it may help, alot of car racing around the world has similar rules,
Go back to two strokes. 60% reduction in running cost 50% reduction in Mods/development cost in one movement, teams could run with less staff and more...
Go back to two strokes. 60% reduction in running cost 50% reduction in Mods/development cost in one movement, teams could run with less staff and more riders and because racing is cheeper you will get have more riders racing.....
Yeah, those new KTM 2-strokes are almost free, huh?......................
lostboy819
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11/14/2013 2:38pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2013 2:40pm
The Rock wrote:
GrapeApe-Thanks for the LOL. This actually was spawned in the shifter kart thread but hey....there's a squirrel! :-)
Pavement is the great equalizer with horse power limits, it works in kart racing but not so much in dirt style racing.
Tarz483
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11/14/2013 2:51pm
I'd like to see some classes that are truly stock
. Suspension mods only .
It seems a lot of the time the deepest pockets wins .
Even at club level . 50s 85s
All the way up
That would even it out a bit and keep cost a little lower
That and some entry level type bike races as some one else said
.. slower . Safer less suspension.cheaper..and still fun.
lostboy819
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11/14/2013 3:07pm
Tarz483 wrote:
I'd like to see some classes that are truly stock . Suspension mods only . It seems a lot of the time the deepest pockets wins...
I'd like to see some classes that are truly stock
. Suspension mods only .
It seems a lot of the time the deepest pockets wins .
Even at club level . 50s 85s
All the way up
That would even it out a bit and keep cost a little lower
That and some entry level type bike races as some one else said
.. slower . Safer less suspension.cheaper..and still fun.
I would rather have great suspension that more HP
JB 19
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11/14/2013 3:23pm Edited Date/Time 11/14/2013 3:24pm
Shawn142 wrote:
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again...
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again. Yes MX is expensive because of 4-strokes, but only marginally when you look big picture. The problem is people have lost their disposable income.
People having 100$ cell phone bills, and 150$ cable/satelite/internet bill, 1300$ house payments, 600$ truck payments and 4$ Starbucks coffee are a few issues I have brought up to people. No doubt that people as a whole are earning less in terms of cost of living, but in the last 6-8 years it has become normal for people to blow money on things that I just don't understand.

Sometimes people need to help them selves too.
Griff.747
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11/14/2013 3:27pm
Why would putting a rev limiter or anything else that would slow down a bike lower the price? The bike costs are the main problem when...
Why would putting a rev limiter or anything else that would slow down a bike lower the price? The bike costs are the main problem when it comes to getting new racers to show up. Maybe a class of entry level bikes (just what we need more classes) could be an answer. Limit the suspension and technology or a MSRP.
You are completely right.

The new FI bikes can be tuned to what the op is talking about. Just not quite to the extent he hopes for. But like wrench said i doesn't really matter when sticker price on a new 450 is 8600
FreshTopEnd
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11/14/2013 3:35pm
Shawn142 wrote:
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again...
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again. Yes MX is expensive because of 4-strokes, but only marginally when you look big picture. The problem is people have lost their disposable income.
^^^^ That's been a 30-year trend, masked by cheap credit until 2008
FreshTopEnd
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11/14/2013 3:37pm
Shawn142 wrote:
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again...
You wanna make racing more affordable? Make it where the average middle class income could be enough to afford a mortgage, gas, groceries, and bikes again. Yes MX is expensive because of 4-strokes, but only marginally when you look big picture. The problem is people have lost their disposable income.
JB 19 wrote:
People having 100$ cell phone bills, and 150$ cable/satelite/internet bill, 1300$ house payments, 600$ truck payments and 4$ Starbucks coffee are a few issues I have...
People having 100$ cell phone bills, and 150$ cable/satelite/internet bill, 1300$ house payments, 600$ truck payments and 4$ Starbucks coffee are a few issues I have brought up to people. No doubt that people as a whole are earning less in terms of cost of living, but in the last 6-8 years it has become normal for people to blow money on things that I just don't understand.

Sometimes people need to help them selves too.
It's true that people spend money differently, but it doesn't change the fact that real wages (and good wage opportunities) for the middle class have eroded for a long time now.
The Rock
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11/14/2013 3:40pm
The Rock wrote:
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the...
Could our sport embrace the idea of having larger engines detuned for stock classes either via intake and exhaust restrictions or fuel/ignition mapping then as the rider's ability improves the engine gets opened up to it's full stock potential? This still leaves the door wide open for aftermarket tuners. Could you get a 450F for Johnny or Susie but have it tuned like a 250F?

Goal would be to save families from having to buy as many bikes or at least extend the time period between purchases. I know this isn't what the manufacturers want but if you believe having a lower costs would increase participation then this might be one way to accomplish it.......or maybe it's a terrible idea.
scott_nz wrote:
something as simple as a rev limiter may do the same thing, if 250F's were limited to say 12000rpm it may help, alot of car racing...
something as simple as a rev limiter may do the same thing,

if 250F's were limited to say 12000rpm it may help, alot of car racing around the world has similar rules,
Great idea Scott.

Let's hear from the board what would be the downside of rev limiters please in the 250F class.
The Rock
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11/14/2013 3:45pm
Why would putting a rev limiter or anything else that would slow down a bike lower the price? The bike costs are the main problem when...
Why would putting a rev limiter or anything else that would slow down a bike lower the price? The bike costs are the main problem when it comes to getting new racers to show up. Maybe a class of entry level bikes (just what we need more classes) could be an answer. Limit the suspension and technology or a MSRP.
Good point about costs and the new racers but we should also be looking at what can be done to lower the cost of participation of race teams and the struggling privateer. Not everyone has the budget to build low hour motors that need to be replaced and rebuilt after every National.
Outsider
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11/14/2013 3:46pm
Why not have classes based on bike age... like vintage racing but not that old, 3 or more years old, 5 or more years old, etc.

Encourage people to pick up used bikes and exercise their mechanical skills as well as riding skills. I don't see how limiting revs will make things any cheaper?
Squid-mom
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11/14/2013 3:53pm
The price of participating in events is becoming a factor as well. Just an example- Mini O's (sx and mx) 2 classes (stock & mod), 4 wristbands, pit pass, unlimited mx card+ transponder = $1095, add to that the gas to get there. The end result is fewer entries. Even on the local level, a race day costs $100+ just to race a couple of locals, hardly seems worth it.
scott_nz
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11/14/2013 3:54pm
Outsider wrote:
Why not have classes based on bike age... like vintage racing but not that old, 3 or more years old, 5 or more years old, etc...
Why not have classes based on bike age... like vintage racing but not that old, 3 or more years old, 5 or more years old, etc.

Encourage people to pick up used bikes and exercise their mechanical skills as well as riding skills. I don't see how limiting revs will make things any cheaper?
there is a classic motocross series over here that ad's the age of the bike, and the age of the rider together, so teh older you are, the newer bike you are aloud to race, from memory its plus 50, plus 60 and plus 70
Tarz483
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11/14/2013 3:56pm
Outsider wrote:
Why not have classes based on bike age... like vintage racing but not that old, 3 or more years old, 5 or more years old, etc...
Why not have classes based on bike age... like vintage racing but not that old, 3 or more years old, 5 or more years old, etc.

Encourage people to pick up used bikes and exercise their mechanical skills as well as riding skills. I don't see how limiting revs will make things any cheaper?
That's a great Idea . I'd love to race
A 1990 to 1995 ish class
My fave era in the sport and not have to compete with brand new bikes while doing so!
Also would be a pretty low cost way to go
Win win..
reded
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11/14/2013 3:58pm
Outsider wrote:
Why not have classes based on bike age... like vintage racing but not that old, 3 or more years old, 5 or more years old, etc...
Why not have classes based on bike age... like vintage racing but not that old, 3 or more years old, 5 or more years old, etc.

Encourage people to pick up used bikes and exercise their mechanical skills as well as riding skills. I don't see how limiting revs will make things any cheaper?
The only way to lower the cost of racing is to change the mindset of the industry. 20 years ago, bike development was moving at such a rapid pace that a 2-3 year old bike DID seem almost obsolete.

Nowadays development isn't moving at such a rapid pace and in some cases it seems it's almost a step backwards (hint hint).

People don't need the latest and greatest to compete at a high level anymore but the mindset of the industry pushes people to think that they do until one day they're out of money, can't afford the latest bikes, gear and accessories so they simply throw in the towel.

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