Posts
76
Joined
4/30/2015
Location
Clearwater Beach, FL
US
Edited Date/Time
5/28/2015 8:52pm
I have a low hour kx450f that has the KYB PSF forks (same as Honda) and I'm wanting to get them revalved. Its seems like it's mainly the midvalve that needs work. I realize there are a bunch of companies out there and some that sell kits to do it myself (which I'm cool with) but is there one that really seems to have mastered the psf? I'm 6' 190 lbs vet that rides mostly mx/sx with the occasional trails. I'm really going after plush but still firm enough. I don't plan to race so speed isn't priority but like to jump and want a ride that gives enough to keep my aging body (with bad knees, wrists, neck) in the game as long as possible. Thanks!
*One word of advice though, if the big name you go with is Factory Connection, send it to their main location, not one of their closer "certified" shops. I've heard bad things from people doing that, getting very un-factory connection results.
Thanks Patrick & Bones!
Regarding local, there's a local guy that uses Racetech and seems to have a good presence at the local track so that's an option I'm considering. Another consideration is getting one of the midvalve kits from them, smart performance, etc to learn more about it and be able to fine tune if necessary. Any thoughts on a kit vs having it done. Thanks!
The Shop
The hard things for smaller shops with newer technology (like airforks) is the sheer volume they are able to do in a year will limit the amount of data they can gather. It isn't that they can't build a great setup for many of them, but the more data the easier it is to find the middle ground for each skill level/weight and then factor in personal preferences on top of that. A few hundred sets through a local shop is a good year, where your bigger companies do that easily in a month. That is without mentioning the technology and tools that the bigger companies are able to afford (and larger teams of smart people to approach setups in their own ways.) At the same point, your local guy is local and available for support as well. It's a bit of a double edged sword.
Going with your local Race Tech Center is nice because they have access to all of the settings/testing/development from the Race Tech network while still being local to you to provide that easy support and tuning. Especially if you are by an RTC like SIX12.
As far as the PSF is concerned in general, the biggest thing is reducing the friction. Because the seals have a ton of pressure on them because of the air spring, they have more drag. It is extremely important to run quality seals and fluids to help reduce this. Our Race Tech setups are also being built to hold the front end up a bit more with valving using lower air pressures, because the lower the pressure, the less drag.
Hope that helps a bit! Let me know if you have any other questions as well. My email is chris@racetech.com.
Don't forget the VitalMX discount!
So I guess my last question would be, if the price was the same at a big name such as Enzo vs a local guy, would you prefer the local support or the company with more experience (at least volume wise)? Thanks again!
I told him I'm not fast but being older I needed them firm but plush to not bottom out because with my old joints, any bottoming goes straight to the wrist, knees, ankles, etc. I told him I didn't plan on racing so I wasn't as concerned about the bike being great everywhere as I was not going metal on metal and bottoming on bigger jumps. I got the bike back with clickers set in anout the middle (15 clicks comp) and the bike actually bottomed easier than stock (though it did feel much better around the rest of the track). When I say bottoming I'm not talking casing a huge sx triple landing into the wall but if I landed short on a 80' table it would bottom pretty darn hard and seemed to go right through the stroke. He said it should bottom out if I don't land just right and if I went too stiff on the compression it would make it too stiff the rest of the track so he went 2 clicks stiffer and a lb stiffer to 36 psi. This still seemed too soft to me (more like my old WR450 trail bike when I jumped that) cuz if I didn't land right in the sweet spot of the transitions it would bottom but he said to keep riding it that way and we'd keep working it. Man even in rollers and whoops it seemed to use nearly all the travel. Just no bottoming resistance at all even with all these expensive valves inside.
Well, on freaking Monday I went to a new track that had a pro track with some bigger jumps. I was jumping all the tables and big doubles and I was measuring a triple, did the double a couple times then went a little too long before jumping the triple and cased the triple and broke my right ankle really bad. I didn't crash but I blew through the stroke so fast that I was metal on metal immediately with my body absorbing the rest. I rolled over the triple knowing I broke my ankle and pulled off the side nearly passing out from the pain and absolutely furious that having too soft a suspension just cost me a fortune and probably ended my MX riding. I don't have insurance so I'll be paying for everything out of pocket plus I own my own business so I will have no income for the next 6 weeks. I broke both tib and fib in multiple places and basically crushed my ankle so I will most likely have to have another surgery in a couple weeks.
I checked my air in the forks right before that session and had 38 psi (I weigh 190 lbs without gear) so it had to be the valving that was too soft right? Is he right that the forks should bottom if I don't land perfect or was it setup too soft? I can't imagine the valving was right and still bottom so easy but is it the air pressure or the valving that is supposed to provide bottoming resistance?
I'm just sick because I was riding good and having more fun then I've ever had on a bike since I got back into it 6 weeks ago. I thought I was being smart holding myself back from jumping until I got a really great suspension on it. I also spent twice what a lot of guys pay to have their suspension done thinking well it's worth it to spend that much if it keeps me from getting hurt. The stock suspension may have absorbed that hit better as it seemed to bottom even easier. Between hospital bills, surgeries and lost work this may cost me close to $50k depending upon how long I can't work.
If I can ride again, what do I do now? Had I gone way stiffer with the compression was all that it would have taken to keep it from bottoming without giving me a harsh ride or was it just not setup stiff enough for me? He watched me going around the track and said it looked good and that he didn't recommend I go stiffer so I went with his recommendation since he's the expert. I'm purposefully going to not give any details as the guy is a nice guy and I'm not wanting to make waves but I need to educate myself more before I go back to him and tell him what his soft suspension did to me.
One thing that really raised question marks with me was I had 3-4 big name companies tell me that a dialed in PSF fork is about as good as a non pro can get and they had better feedback on those than what they've been able to get with the 2015 Showa. When I asked this guy about the PSF (when he already had the bike in hand) he said, it wasn't a very good fork. I was getting a check at that moment and should have aborted and shipped out my suspension but didn't and it cost me big time. Not sure what to do now if I decide to keep riding.
best of luck in your recovery.
Did your guy change the stock mid valve? I ask because I personally believe that is necessary...
The hard part, for me and the tuner, is that I don't have enough experience to draw on. So i kept it simple, I wanted it firm but still plush with no bottoming. Sitting on the bike I can shove it way into the stroke. In retrospect I wish I had just kept going in on the clickers so that I knew if it would have fixed the bottoming. Or should we have added oil? Or was the valving just wrong ( I have no idea what's going on inside)? When I asked which would keep it from bottoming I didn't get a clear answer. Do you think going from clickers 2/3 stiff to all the way stiff would have remedied the problem or does it sound like something else was off?
Pit Row
If it felt so soft off the stand, why risk it? Oil adds bottoming resistance
When the dust clears from all this, I'd tell him what happened so he can add some low speed compression to your valving. And fork oil!
I nor anyone else here can actually comment with certainty on exactly what was the reason it didn't work well. Like Jtiges said more oil mostly adds bottoming resistance. If it was "blowing through the stroke", that would indicate more than just inadequate oil volume. You're in a situation where you need to get with your tuner and his parent company(that produced the valve body products used) to figure out what direction you need to go.
Ironically I did a full revalve on a '14 KX 450 today, but I have developed a solid set up utilizing OEM valves so nothing I do would relate to anything going on with your set up.
Again, if it has RT stuff in there, please contact me via email to chris@racetech.com and from there I will give you my cell number and we can see about getting a look inside to see what is going on.
Heal up soon, sucks to hear about anyone getting banged up.
with all the small parts, and granted you are not going to have the depth of experience the
pro tuners have, but it's very satisfying doing it yourself. I feel like I've dialed in my forks really well.
They feel pretty darn good to me! ('06 CRF450. Different bike, I know.)
There's a massive thread on TT with all sorts of people going through their bikes and people weighing in:
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/327668-diy-04-450-suspension-re-valve/…
If you read it a bit, you can kinda start to get the hang of what goes on.
I also replaced the inner cartridge bottom seal and free piston seal by following some clips I found on YouTube.
Neither job was very difficult at all.
Once you've taken things apart a couple times, you'll be REALLY comfortable changing the valving stacks.
You'll be surprised how fast you can knock it out.
The biggest thing you will need is to be CLEAN and ORGANIZED. I lay out a big piece of white butcher paper where I can make notes and keep things tidy. You will also need a notebook for sure to keep track of the changes you make.
It is a somewhat messy job so be prepared for that.
For me, since I like to take my time the first time going through a new job, I pretty much set aside an entire day to
do all the stuff first time around. But once you've taken things apart a couple times, you'll be REALLY comfortable changing the valving stacks. You'll be surprised how fast you can knock it out. If I can do it, so can you. Give it a whirl.
The good news is after a year of physical therapy I'm able to walk most days with only limited amount of pain and life is getting back to my "new normal". I rode my KX450F for the first time last week and it felt great to be back on it. The suspension is crazy soft and actually felt really good for trail riding but is so far off the mark for the SX/MX mix I paid Ronnie at Six12 suspensions to do, hence the injury.
I'm putting that behind me though and am really happy that my suspension is on a truck making it's way to Race Tech as we speak. I can't say enough good things about Chris Riesenberg and the whole Race Tech staff I've dealt with through this process! I was so depressed after my injury that I couldn't even think about my suspension for quite a few months but then I contacted Chris and he's been so supportive and such a class act! Though their in-house shop didn't work on my suspension, he realized it was botched by someone using their parts and so he's been all about making things right so I can safely get back to riding without spending a fortune getting my suspension right since I already spent close to $900 on the local guy (well, $900 + the small fortune on lost wages and medical bills). Ugh, I can't go there...I gotta keep looking forward! I can't wait to get it all back together and ease back into riding again and thanks to Chris and Race Tech, that reality is not that far away.
I thought this dream was crushed and that I'd never ride again but the cool thing is my ankle really didn't hurt at all while riding although I didn't jump anything but small tables with the suspension the way it is. I will have to be very cautious because even with a dialed suspension and my new ankle savers pegs, if I have to eject and come down on this ankle it will not be pretty. Life is good! God is awesome! And my wife is amazing for not leaving me when I mentioned I wanted to start riding again. She's not happy but she will support me in it so I just have to be smart and use self control.
If there is one thing I learned through all this that I could advise others on is if you ever feel that check inside you when you are about to do something, trust in your discernment. I've had that happen twice in the last couple years. One was an investment where when I was writing the check to the guy I felt this check in my spirit but ignored it and lost a bunch of money. The other was when I went to drop off my bike to have the suspension done locally. In talking to the tuner something just didn't feel right and it just seemed like he didn't have as much experience with these air suspensions as he was leading on and I heard several things that were conflicting to what I had heard talking to Enzo, Race Tech, Pro Circuit and other Race shops on the phone. I woke up that next morning really regretting dropping off my bike and I was so tempted to go get it and send out my suspension to California but again, ignored it and it cost me big.
If you are ever doing anything in life and get that feeling inside like something isn't right....stop and listen to it because we all have intuition and discernment but some times we get too busy or stubborn to listen to it.
Ride safe guys and I will update you after I get my suspension back and start riding again!
Race Tech rocks!
Wow Red, just happened to catch the last entries to your thread. Hope you heal up soon, and right.
That being said, I know exactly what you're talking about as far as asking for bottoming resistance. I broke my wrist in '85, and since can't really take too hard of a hit. I have always stressed to anyone tuning my suspension that I'm not a huge double and triple fan, but I'm more old school where I like it rough, and I like to force my way through things. My biggest request is that when launching from a single jump out onto the flat, I don't necessarily want to have to back it way off to prevent to much height on take off. I like to hit the ground under power, but every time I've had suspension done, when I land off of a similarly described jump, I bottom hard and with a clunk. It's this type of landing that always makes me back off speed wise. I used to be an A rider, and when I moved to 25+ (24 years ago), I told them that even though I wasn't racing A anymore, I still wanted the suspension set up firm for bottoming resistance. It didn't matter, everyone always valves it much softer than I'd prefer. So, I just slowed down.
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