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KTM Direct Injection 2 stroke

miedosoracing1

C100_450f_rider

Posts: 1785

Joined: 1/19/2009

Location: Dallas, TX USA

6/10/2011 11:36 AM

Orange724 wrote: Haha, hell yeah to that 2 stroke rider.

"push those four strokes up boys"

Haha, awesome vid.

I have an 09 250sx, but I will not throw down on a new bike until the DI comes out.

I think DI will finally bring the 2 stroke to the top again.

When I'm trail riding here's some conss of my 2 stroke compared to my 4 stroke riding buddies:
-I don't trust it idiling very long, while my 4 stroke buddies let their bikes sit and idle all the time.
-Coasting down hills my bike loads up and fouls plugs if I don't pull in the clutch and blip the throttle.
-They burn noticibly less fuel.

From what I've read and watched vids about DI it sounds like it will fix these last few issues that hold the 2 stroke back from certain buyers.

I just hope it doesn't nueter the 2 stroke hit.

Both of the things you posted have to do with the same reason. Your bike is jetted wrong. A well jetted 2 stroke can idle fine. If you are fouling plugs, that is a sign. I NEVER foul plugs. Not bragging or anything, it's just the fact that if jetted correctly, it will not foul. It would do the same thing on a 4 stroke if jetted wrong.

Don't be a 2 Stroke Racist. Join in the fight for equality. CC vs CC side by side.
We should no longer be concerned with color, size, stroke preferences or make. I'm not a 4 stroker, "not that there is anything wrong with it."

Orange724

C100_102531270_1293319706

Posts: 340

Joined: 12/25/2010

Location: Vancouver, WA USA

6/10/2011 11:49 AM

Probably the case. Mine is jetted for close to sea level (where most of the tracks are at), and it's pretty crisp there.

The trails I ride at are more around 1500' though. That difference in riding elevation is more of a reason to get the DI.

unknownmxr

C100_7890

Posts: 473

Joined: 4/1/2008

Location: CAN

6/10/2011 12:09 PM

The nasty secret of fuel injection is the high cost fuel pump. FI runs at a high pressure and , same as a four wheeler, the pumps are only good for a couple years. Replacement around $1000. DI is even worse. Line pressures of 2000 psi. I heard the new GM diesels have an electric pump> $6000 replacement cost.

miedosoracing1

C100_450f_rider

Posts: 1785

Joined: 1/19/2009

Location: Dallas, TX USA

6/10/2011 12:30 PM

unknownmxr wrote: The nasty secret of fuel injection is the high cost fuel pump. FI runs at a high pressure and , same as a four wheeler, the pumps are only good for a couple years. Replacement around $1000. DI is even worse. Line pressures of 2000 psi. I heard the new GM diesels have an electric pump> $6000 replacement cost.

Something that would be nice. Fuel Injected, w/ abiliy to swap with carb if so desired. Passes EPA, but people can swap out if not in Cali

Don't be a 2 Stroke Racist. Join in the fight for equality. CC vs CC side by side.
We should no longer be concerned with color, size, stroke preferences or make. I'm not a 4 stroker, "not that there is anything wrong with it."

ns503

C100_629293178_1215692266

Posts: 1656

Joined: 4/1/2008

Location: NS Toolies, CAN

6/10/2011 12:36 PM

unknownmxr wrote: The nasty secret of fuel injection is the high cost fuel pump. FI runs at a high pressure and , same as a four wheeler, the pumps are only good for a couple years. Replacement around $1000. DI is even worse. Line pressures of 2000 psi. I heard the new GM diesels have an electric pump> $6000 replacement cost.

ATVs are not Direct Injected.

BRP has had DI 2 Strokes in watercraft & snowmobiles for the last few years. I know a few people with DI sleds here, have heard of not one issue with fuel systems.

HAF

crashnburn11

C100_1425537_3520753755215_661792248_n_1389554201

Posts: 1354

Joined: 10/19/2010

Location: CA, USA

6/10/2011 1:17 PM

miedosoracing1 wrote: Both of the things you posted have to do with the same reason. Your bike is jetted wrong. A well jetted 2 stroke can idle fine. If you are fouling plugs, that is a sign. I NEVER foul plugs. Not bragging or anything, it's just the fact that if jetted correctly, it will not foul. It would do the same thing on a 4 stroke if jetted wrong.

x2, can't remember ever fouling a plug on my 250, and def don't have any idling issues

Tiki

C100_135734890_1287021403

Posts: 9958

Joined: 8/1/2006

Location: Corona, CA USA

6/10/2011 2:04 PM

ando wrote: Quote from Rob Twyerould, technical guy for KTM Australia, taken from the July issue of Australasian Dirt Bike:

"There is definitely a well-developed prototype at KTM, but they are waiting for the next round of emission restrictions to be announced before pushing forward.

"KTM has developed and patented it's own mechanical fuel pump system and a very compact oil delivery system to the bottom-end bearings, and the whole bike works really well.

"While there are some reasonable performance improvements, the real advantages of the system are in emissions and fuel economy. So the motivation for bringing to market will only come with the new emission targets."

Are the emissions in Australia akin to America? California has new standards coming out in 2012, I think 2015 is the next after that. If I have to wait til then, Bummer I will probably be riding something else. If we are talking 2013 - well Hello There! I imagine a Direct Injected 125CC bike would be quite the little power monster. Be interesting to see the torque on that.

ando

C100_windham_01_s

Posts: 1490

Joined: 8/20/2009

Location: Perth, AUS

6/10/2011 3:53 PM

ando wrote: Quote from Rob Twyerould, technical guy for KTM Australia, taken from the July issue of Australasian Dirt Bike:

"There is definitely a well-developed prototype at KTM, but they are waiting for the next round of emission restrictions to be announced before pushing forward.

"KTM has developed and patented it's own mechanical fuel pump system and a very compact oil delivery system to the bottom-end bearings, and the whole bike works really well.

"While there are some reasonable performance improvements, the real advantages of the system are in emissions and fuel economy. So the motivation for bringing to market will only come with the new emission targets."

Tiki wrote: Are the emissions in Australia akin to America? California has new standards coming out in 2012, I think 2015 is the next after that. If I have to wait til then, Bummer I will probably be riding something else. If we are talking 2013 - well Hello There! I imagine a Direct Injected 125CC bike would be quite the little power monster. Be interesting to see the torque on that.

Australian vehicles for road use have to comply with local standards, which are aligned with Euro emission standards (currently Euro 4). While I'm not familiar with the legislation, I'm going to say that off-road motorbikes are currently exempt, because all current enduro 2 stroke bikes available in Australia, meaning all KTM, Gas Gas, TM, Husky, Husaberg etc, are fully legal for road use.

However, I think the standards being referred to in the article are US standards, I'd have to check but I think elsewhere in the article it talks about new standards due out for 2012.

The problem with pessimists is that eventually they are right.

ODB

C100_ryans_bike_011

Posts: 160

Joined: 7/28/2010

Location: CAN

6/10/2011 4:08 PM

KTM and ROTAX [skidoo owned],have been working closely for years and i have read the 250 ktm 4 stroke was built by rotax ..........this DI 2 stroke has been tested for 3 years now and anyone who knows the skidoo DI technology knows its awesome ...........power gain ,some say no ,how about imagining that your bike is always jetted properly for the hills, the temp, the mud the humidity ........all on the same day .............easy smeasy,beeen holding off onthe new 150 for this DI ...............FREES UP AN HOUR A DAY EASILY ON RACEDAY FOR ME

RocketLab

C100_csc_0146_1

Posts: 732

Joined: 11/18/2009

Location: San Antonio, TX USA

6/10/2011 4:28 PM

Racer92 wrote: I have a Mercury OptiMax 90hp direct injection 2-smoke on my bay-boat and those things are incredible. Clean burn, incredible mileage, fires up first time, every time.

I would have to see that to believe it. When are we going fishing?

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Henry Ford

ky_savage

C100_2352147482_2b20f5c5a8

Posts: 1594

Joined: 12/4/2008

Location: Perryville, KY USA

6/10/2011 4:28 PM

I bet this guy had to load up really quick because those 4 stroke guys were probably looking for him after this race. lol. Love how he was taunting them. hahaha

Tiki

C100_135734890_1287021403

Posts: 9958

Joined: 8/1/2006

Location: Corona, CA USA

6/10/2011 6:07 PM

ando wrote: Quote from Rob Twyerould, technical guy for KTM Australia, taken from the July issue of Australasian Dirt Bike:

"There is definitely a well-developed prototype at KTM, but they are waiting for the next round of emission restrictions to be announced before pushing forward.

"KTM has developed and patented it's own mechanical fuel pump system and a very compact oil delivery system to the bottom-end bearings, and the whole bike works really well.

"While there are some reasonable performance improvements, the real advantages of the system are in emissions and fuel economy. So the motivation for bringing to market will only come with the new emission targets."

Tiki wrote: Are the emissions in Australia akin to America? California has new standards coming out in 2012, I think 2015 is the next after that. If I have to wait til then, Bummer I will probably be riding something else. If we are talking 2013 - well Hello There! I imagine a Direct Injected 125CC bike would be quite the little power monster. Be interesting to see the torque on that.

ando wrote: Australian vehicles for road use have to comply with local standards, which are aligned with Euro emission standards (currently Euro 4). While I'm not familiar with the legislation, I'm going to say that off-road motorbikes are currently exempt, because all current enduro 2 stroke bikes available in Australia, meaning all KTM, Gas Gas, TM, Husky, Husaberg etc, are fully legal for road use.

However, I think the standards being referred to in the article are US standards, I'd have to check but I think elsewhere in the article it talks about new standards due out for 2012.

I can only hope that because the 300 EXC hasn't been released yet for '12 that it may just get the direct injection. Those new KTM's are PURTY!

CamP

C100_139826380_1291095094

Posts: 6727

Joined: 8/16/2006

Location: Colleyville, TX USA

6/10/2011 6:09 PM

When was the last time any of you guys trumpeting F.I. bought a brand new bike?

ando

C100_windham_01_s

Posts: 1490

Joined: 8/20/2009

Location: Perth, AUS

6/10/2011 6:29 PM

Tiki wrote: Are the emissions in Australia akin to America? California has new standards coming out in 2012, I think 2015 is the next after that. If I have to wait til then, Bummer I will probably be riding something else. If we are talking 2013 - well Hello There! I imagine a Direct Injected 125CC bike would be quite the little power monster. Be interesting to see the torque on that.

ando wrote: Australian vehicles for road use have to comply with local standards, which are aligned with Euro emission standards (currently Euro 4). While I'm not familiar with the legislation, I'm going to say that off-road motorbikes are currently exempt, because all current enduro 2 stroke bikes available in Australia, meaning all KTM, Gas Gas, TM, Husky, Husaberg etc, are fully legal for road use.

However, I think the standards being referred to in the article are US standards, I'd have to check but I think elsewhere in the article it talks about new standards due out for 2012.

Tiki wrote: I can only hope that because the 300 EXC hasn't been released yet for '12 that it may just get the direct injection. Those new KTM's are PURTY!

No luck there, the 300EXC has already been released in Europe, no DI.

The problem with pessimists is that eventually they are right.

Faceaz

C100

Posts: 1327

Joined: 7/28/2008

Location: Glendale, AZ USA

6/10/2011 6:36 PM

CamP wrote: Add $1000 to the bikes and they will sell like hot cakes...not.

Matt Fisher wrote: It would still be about a grand less than a new valve muncher.

I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes.



I have to agree with Suns_PSD about what I'd like to see made- that sounds like one heck of a great bike.

CamP wrote: "I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes."

The manufacturers sold less than 50k units of competition dirt bikes last year. That's down about 950,000 units from 30 years ago. Between the economy and the expensive technological bike developments, this sport is on it's death bed. Making the bikes more expensive is the last thing this sport needs.

You got any link to statistics on that. Not saying it's incorrect, but selling close to 1 million units a year sounds like allot, the 50k number is understandable.

Mod Killer

C100_628669118_1209232610

Posts: 1932

Joined: 4/1/2008

Location: Worldwide, CA USA

6/10/2011 6:37 PM

CamP wrote: When was the last time any of you guys trumpeting F.I. bought a brand new bike?

i have a 2010. i really like F.I.

not cool enough for motodrivel....banned from motodrive....so im stuck here to rot.

umagumadog

C100_cz_1413374049

Posts: 845

Joined: 10/29/2006

Location: GA, USA

6/10/2011 7:04 PM

miedosoracing1 wrote:

ky_savage wrote: I bet this guy had to load up really quick because those 4 stroke guys were probably looking for him after this race. lol. Love how he was taunting them. hahaha

Nah they were to tired from pushing to go after anybody.

Those dudes on Vital take shit WAY too seriously. I think they think they are signed on to a "let's cure cancer" message board

ky_savage

C100_2352147482_2b20f5c5a8

Posts: 1594

Joined: 12/4/2008

Location: Perryville, KY USA

6/10/2011 7:06 PM

haha.. True!

CamP

C100_139826380_1291095094

Posts: 6727

Joined: 8/16/2006

Location: Colleyville, TX USA

6/10/2011 8:26 PM

Faceaz wrote: You got any link to statistics on that. Not saying it's incorrect, but selling close to 1 million units a year sounds like allot, the 50k number is understandable.

Believe it, I've seen the MIC (Motorcycle Industry Council) publications on the historical sales data and the dirt bike sales peak was 1979 with 1 million units. That's 20 times the units sold today even though the US population has grown 36% since 1980.

Here's another way to look at it. In 1980, one in every 226 people in the US had a new dirt bike. Today one in every 6,160 people in the US owns a new dirt bike. That's a sad statistic and if the manufacturers don't put a lid on the cost of the bikes, it will just get worse.

observer

C100_96617960_1285631714

Posts: 813

Joined: 6/7/2009

Location: Puyallup(by way of TX, OK), WA USA

6/10/2011 8:52 PM

miedosoracing1 wrote:

ky_savage wrote: I bet this guy had to load up really quick because those 4 stroke guys were probably looking for him after this race. lol. Love how he was taunting them. hahaha

umagumadog wrote: Nah they were to tired from pushing to go after anybody.

No kiddin...had an 06 300xc, HAD to have a 4t, went with new 09 400xcw, couldn't wait toget off that porker.
Now ride 2010 300xcw, nice offroad scoot.

rustytrombone

C100_3844665903_1

Posts: 994

Joined: 11/17/2009

Location: USA

6/10/2011 9:02 PM

CamP wrote: Because it's expensive and unnecessary. The beauty of the current 2-strokes is that they are simple and inexpensive. KTM engineers say that fuel injection is not a performance upgrade. It's an lower emissions upgrade. Why would you want to add cost to the bike for something that doesn't actually improve performance?

I agree for the most part, but all bikes will increase in price, and the 2 stroke will still be less expensive than the thumper.

regards,

Faceaz

C100

Posts: 1327

Joined: 7/28/2008

Location: Glendale, AZ USA

6/10/2011 9:04 PM

CamP wrote: "I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes."

The manufacturers sold less than 50k units of competition dirt bikes last year. That's down about 950,000 units from 30 years ago. Between the economy and the expensive technological bike developments, this sport is on it's death bed. Making the bikes more expensive is the last thing this sport needs.

Faceaz wrote: You got any link to statistics on that. Not saying it's incorrect, but selling close to 1 million units a year sounds like allot, the 50k number is understandable.

CamP wrote: Believe it, I've seen the MIC (Motorcycle Industry Council) publications on the historical sales data and the dirt bike sales peak was 1979 with 1 million units. That's 20 times the units sold today even though the US population has grown 36% since 1980.

Here's another way to look at it. In 1980, one in every 226 people in the US had a new dirt bike. Today one in every 6,160 people in the US owns a new dirt bike. That's a sad statistic and if the manufacturers don't put a lid on the cost of the bikes, it will just get worse.

So... no link?

Again, not saying it's incorrect. But, I'm guessing the information isn't apples to apples.

rustytrombone

C100_3844665903_1

Posts: 994

Joined: 11/17/2009

Location: USA

6/10/2011 9:09 PM

Faceaz wrote: So... no link?

Again, not saying it's incorrect. But, I'm guessing the information isn't apples to apples.

I tried looking @ the MIC site, but you gotta be a member to see any specs.

regards,

CamP

C100_139826380_1291095094

Posts: 6727

Joined: 8/16/2006

Location: Colleyville, TX USA

6/10/2011 9:24 PM

Faceaz wrote: So... no link?

Again, not saying it's incorrect. But, I'm guessing the information isn't apples to apples.

Fill out this form, then send it in with $250 and you can see the data for yourself. http://www.mic.org/members/membership/rua.pdf

steedmills

C100_berk

Posts: 1820

Joined: 2/21/2011

Location: NLD

6/11/2011 12:19 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/3/2012 6:46 AM

Tiki wrote: Are the emissions in Australia akin to America? California has new standards coming out in 2012, I think 2015 is the next after that. If I have to wait til then, Bummer I will probably be riding something else. If we are talking 2013 - well Hello There! I imagine a Direct Injected 125CC bike would be quite the little power monster. Be interesting to see the torque on that.

ando wrote: Australian vehicles for road use have to comply with local standards, which are aligned with Euro emission standards (currently Euro 4). While I'm not familiar with the legislation, I'm going to say that off-road motorbikes are currently exempt, because all current enduro 2 stroke bikes available in Australia, meaning all KTM, Gas Gas, TM, Husky, Husaberg etc, are fully legal for road use.

However, I think the standards being referred to in the article are US standards, I'd have to check but I think elsewhere in the article it talks about new standards due out for 2012.

Tiki wrote: I can only hope that because the 300 EXC hasn't been released yet for '12 that it may just get the direct injection. Those new KTM's are PURTY!

.

dboivin

C100_vital_1395115954

Posts: 1774

Joined: 5/19/2010

Location: Saginaw, MI USA

6/11/2011 3:19 AM

Orange724 wrote: Haha, hell yeah to that 2 stroke rider.

"push those four strokes up boys"

Haha, awesome vid.

I have an 09 250sx, but I will not throw down on a new bike until the DI comes out.

I think DI will finally bring the 2 stroke to the top again.

When I'm trail riding here's some conss of my 2 stroke compared to my 4 stroke riding buddies:
-I don't trust it idiling very long, while my 4 stroke buddies let their bikes sit and idle all the time.
-Coasting down hills my bike loads up and fouls plugs if I don't pull in the clutch and blip the throttle.
-They burn noticibly less fuel.

From what I've read and watched vids about DI it sounds like it will fix these last few issues that hold the 2 stroke back from certain buyers.

I just hope it doesn't nueter the 2 stroke hit.

miedosoracing1 wrote: Both of the things you posted have to do with the same reason. Your bike is jetted wrong. A well jetted 2 stroke can idle fine. If you are fouling plugs, that is a sign. I NEVER foul plugs. Not bragging or anything, it's just the fact that if jetted correctly, it will not foul. It would do the same thing on a 4 stroke if jetted wrong.

crashnburn11 wrote: x2, can't remember ever fouling a plug on my 250, and def don't have any idling issues

still think e-tech is way to go...or similar technology. for those that think it adds complication to the motor hasn't seen it...hasn't witnessed one operating. They burn minimal oil....damn near 0 emission. You won't call it a 2smoker any more. You can park an etech in your living room and let it idle there all day and not see/smell/fog yourself out. thats unheard of in 2 strokes. you would have supercross full of 2 strokes and no blue haze If BRP was to get into the market, they would be instant hits. they are starting to cut into the 4wheel market again...mainly because of these motors.

Ing

C100_100_2211

Posts: 3211

Joined: 8/16/2006

Location: Spring Hill, FL USA

6/11/2011 3:56 AM

CamP wrote: Believe it, I've seen the MIC (Motorcycle Industry Council) publications on the historical sales data and the dirt bike sales peak was 1979 with 1 million units. That's 20 times the units sold today even though the US population has grown 36% since 1980.

Here's another way to look at it. In 1980, one in every 226 people in the US had a new dirt bike. Today one in every 6,160 people in the US owns a new dirt bike. That's a sad statistic and if the manufacturers don't put a lid on the cost of the bikes, it will just get worse.

I'd hold out for 30cent gasoline also.

The older I get, the faster I was. Posting without a cast on is fun!

SL91

C100

Posts: 824

Joined: 4/4/2008

Location: Halifax, CAN

6/11/2011 5:14 AM

RMT wrote: The new 2013 Can Am MX250 will have a 250cc E-Tec Rotax engine. It will be the lightest bike made and have more power than a 450cc 4 stroke. It will have better fuel economy, therefore reducing the size of the tank and associated weight of the fuel. It will burn cleaner than any 2 stroke ever made. It will also be very quiet. It will have a completely different frame based off of current aircraft technology. All this, for $8999. Yes, it will be expensive, but Can -Am's like BMW and Mercedes, are not for everyone.

queen of spodes wrote: link please

RMT wrote: I have inside info and cant post a link or reveal my source. lol. It was a joke, but if BRP wanted to get back into MX bikes, that is what it would be like.

Haha! I raced Canned-Hams in the late 70's/early 80's. They were fast, but they handled like shit, weighed a ton, were very wide, and in 1979 I finished a total of 9 motos. The other 13 dnf'ed. Some of the hi-light dnf's: both gas tank mounts broke when i landed from a jumped and the tank popped right off; I sheared the key off the primary shaft twice (who the hell uses a key and key-way on a gear that comes under such stress-every other manufacturer is smart enough to use splined gears); the pipe cracked; a swingarm bearing shredded; the frame cracked under the seat... you get the idea! Oh yeah, did I say they were ugly?
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