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KTM Direct Injection 2 stroke

ando

C100_windham_01_s

Posts: 1490

Joined: 8/20/2009

Location: Perth, AUS

6/9/2011 10:09 PM

Quote from Rob Twyerould, technical guy for KTM Australia, taken from the July issue of Australasian Dirt Bike:

"There is definitely a well-developed prototype at KTM, but they are waiting for the next round of emission restrictions to be announced before pushing forward.

"KTM has developed and patented it's own mechanical fuel pump system and a very compact oil delivery system to the bottom-end bearings, and the whole bike works really well.

"While there are some reasonable performance improvements, the real advantages of the system are in emissions and fuel economy. So the motivation for bringing to market will only come with the new emission targets."

The problem with pessimists is that eventually they are right.

crashnburn11

C100_1425537_3520753755215_661792248_n_1389554201

Posts: 1352

Joined: 10/19/2010

Location: CA, USA

6/9/2011 10:49 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/9/2011 10:52 PM

Cool that they are still pursuing it, they will have my money whenever they release a SX model with it

SoCalMX70

C100_img_4917_1_1389927722

Posts: 901

Joined: 4/1/2008

Location: Thousand Oaks, CA USA

6/9/2011 10:51 PM

crashnburn11 wrote: Cool that they are still pursuing it, they will have my money whenever they release a SX model with it

+1

Damn, never thought I'd buy a KTM...

James

LURCH

C100_lurch_addams_family_6160640_456_480

Posts: 187

Joined: 3/1/2011

Location: USA

6/9/2011 10:58 PM

It would be so sweet not having to jet you're smoker. I'd imagine it still has a reed valve system. Electronic power valve too.

steedmills

C100_berk

Posts: 1820

Joined: 2/21/2011

Location: NLD

6/9/2011 11:05 PM
Edited Date/Time: 5/3/2012 6:43 AM

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Jake-247

C100_424043_4634786982335_774842535_n

Posts: 866

Joined: 10/21/2009

Location: Sunshine Coast, AUS

6/9/2011 11:22 PM

Is it just me, or does it seem like KTM actually love building motorcycles?

The Villopoto strategy is simple. Get a good start and haul ass. If you don’t get a good start, haul more ass.

EatAChode

C100

Posts: 323

Joined: 12/23/2010

Location: Chandler, AZ USA

6/9/2011 11:28 PM

Being that KTM is in the business of purely making motorcycles and related items, it is great to see a company evolve and adapt so quickly to our changing world (legal, ethical, noise, and so on).

I have never been a big KTM fan even after working at a dealer for two years. Its not that I dont like them, I just have always thought the Jap bikes are better.

Now more than ever it seems the Jap bike approach of making a model and milking it for years (plug Yamaha here) is becoming a huge disadvantage. I think KTM will have the best bikes very soon and that it wont even be a competition.

Thank you KTM for listening to your consumers and striving to always make a better bike. I am sure that I will eventually buy one. Right after I get off my 2011 Honda CRF450 that is 5lbs lighter than your 350.

Yes I work nights, therefore I have nothing better to do.

tobz

C100_2

Posts: 1933

Joined: 3/5/2007

Location: Adelaide, AUS

6/9/2011 11:50 PM

steedmills wrote: .

It's impossibe to make a bad bike when you sound like Arnold Schwarzenegger


"engine management system is more powerfull than a carburetor" (In arnolds accent).

steedmills

C100_berk

Posts: 1820

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Location: NLD

6/10/2011 12:03 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/3/2012 6:43 AM

steedmills wrote: .

tobz wrote: It's impossibe to make a bad bike when you sound like Arnold Schwarzenegger


"engine management system is more powerfull than a carburetor" (In arnolds accent).

.

Fearo

C100_95297880_1261746374

Posts: 659

Joined: 12/17/2009

Location: BEL

6/10/2011 1:41 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2011 1:42 AM

So when can we expect these new 'emission restrictions' that they are waiting for?

In the video steedmills posted, it sounds like they are already pretty well advanced in the development of the fuel injected 2-stroke. They are talking about finding the right suppliers to supply the new pieces. I have no idea how much time this would take, but would that mean we could see them as early as 2013 or would that be too optimistic most likely?

Also, would it be more likely that they would give the 2-strokes EFI or DI? (not that I know the difference)

steedmills

C100_berk

Posts: 1820

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Location: NLD

6/10/2011 1:56 AM
Edited Date/Time: 5/3/2012 6:44 AM

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reded

C100_bailey_gainesville85_001

Posts: 1961

Joined: 3/26/2011

Location: KS, USA

6/10/2011 3:21 AM

Direct Injection? Puhleeeze.....what fun is it owning a two stroke if you don't get to splash a little gas and oil on yourself once in a while?

J/K...Sounds awesome!

burn1986

C100_nose_picker_1411148777

Posts: 6259

Joined: 4/16/2010

Location: Hell, LA USA

6/10/2011 4:28 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2011 6:02 AM

I wonder if this will have better emissions than a 4-stroke?

Racer92

C100_99798330_1279139839

Posts: 19646

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Location: Central, TX USA

6/10/2011 5:27 AM

I have a Mercury OptiMax 90hp direct injection 2-smoke on my bay-boat and those things are incredible. Clean burn, incredible mileage, fires up first time, every time.

"The public sucks. Fuck hope." ~ George Carlin

dboivin

C100_vital_1395115954

Posts: 1774

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Location: Saginaw, MI USA

6/10/2011 6:40 AM

we in the north ride e-tech ski-doo's. our outboards are e-tech johnson/evinrudes. FI two strokes, oil injected....incredibly low emission. fast. why can't someone harness this tech for an MX bike?

three9zero

C100_pa310005

Posts: 614

Joined: 9/26/2010

Location: The Rockies, CAN

6/10/2011 6:48 AM

this season I had a 2011 Ski Doo Summit Freeride with the 800 cc E-tec direct injection system, if KTM was able to "borrow" this system from their Austrian neighbours rotax I will be down at the dealership asap with my pre season deposit..

CamP

C100_139826380_1291095094

Posts: 6727

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Location: Colleyville, TX USA

6/10/2011 6:52 AM

dboivin wrote: we in the north ride e-tech ski-doo's. our outboards are e-tech johnson/evinrudes. FI two strokes, oil injected....incredibly low emission. fast. why can't someone harness this tech for an MX bike?

Because it's expensive and unnecessary. The beauty of the current 2-strokes is that they are simple and inexpensive. KTM engineers say that fuel injection is not a performance upgrade. It's an lower emissions upgrade. Why would you want to add cost to the bike for something that doesn't actually improve performance?

three9zero

C100_pa310005

Posts: 614

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Location: The Rockies, CAN

6/10/2011 6:58 AM

dboivin wrote: we in the north ride e-tech ski-doo's. our outboards are e-tech johnson/evinrudes. FI two strokes, oil injected....incredibly low emission. fast. why can't someone harness this tech for an MX bike?

CamP wrote: Because it's expensive and unnecessary. The beauty of the current 2-strokes is that they are simple and inexpensive. KTM engineers say that fuel injection is not a performance upgrade. It's an lower emissions upgrade. Why would you want to add cost to the bike for something that doesn't actually improve performance?

I owned a 2010 Summit P-tec(carbX2) and a 2011 Summit E=-ec(Di) the 2011 had 10 more hp and throttle response was insane,retail wise it was $ 1000 more(less than 10%), I could let the sled run indoors and it did not smoke out my garage,it used % 20 less fuel and 30% less oil, I ran it all season on 1 set of plugs, and it started first pull every time, even after being stuck upside down in a tree hole for 1hr. Think outside the box, and it will still cost less that a pOS four stroke that weighs more, makes less power per CC and is louder than my newborn baby......

Suns_PSD

C100_628689938_1217452667

Posts: 673

Joined: 4/1/2008

Location: Austin, TX USA

6/10/2011 7:01 AM

CamP wrote: Because it's expensive and unnecessary. The beauty of the current 2-strokes is that they are simple and inexpensive. KTM engineers say that fuel injection is not a performance upgrade. It's an lower emissions upgrade. Why would you want to add cost to the bike for something that doesn't actually improve performance?

Di does indeed perform better w/ a wider, almost 4 stroke like powerband.

Still, All I want is the modern carbed 250SX to have a factory built 350cc 2 stroke engine w/ a very wide powerband similiar to a modern 450F. Current technology will be fine.

It would be easy and cheap to build and the lower RPMs used would improve mpg as well.

2013 KTM 250SX, full Ohlins front and back, 314cc built stroker engine, Lectron Carb.

CamP

C100_139826380_1291095094

Posts: 6727

Joined: 8/16/2006

Location: Colleyville, TX USA

6/10/2011 7:02 AM

three9zero wrote: I owned a 2010 Summit P-tec(carbX2) and a 2011 Summit E=-ec(Di) the 2011 had 10 more hp and throttle response was insane,retail wise it was $ 1000 more(less than 10%), I could let the sled run indoors and it did not smoke out my garage,it used % 20 less fuel and 30% less oil, I ran it all season on 1 set of plugs, and it started first pull every time, even after being stuck upside down in a tree hole for 1hr. Think outside the box, and it will still cost less that a pOS four stroke that weighs more, makes less power per CC and is louder than my newborn baby......

Add $1000 to the bikes and they will sell like hot cakes...not.

Matt Fisher

C100_110698790_1236061522

Posts: 2183

Joined: 4/1/2008

Location: Visalia, CA USA

6/10/2011 7:31 AM

CamP wrote: Because it's expensive and unnecessary. The beauty of the current 2-strokes is that they are simple and inexpensive. KTM engineers say that fuel injection is not a performance upgrade. It's an lower emissions upgrade. Why would you want to add cost to the bike for something that doesn't actually improve performance?

three9zero wrote: I owned a 2010 Summit P-tec(carbX2) and a 2011 Summit E=-ec(Di) the 2011 had 10 more hp and throttle response was insane,retail wise it was $ 1000 more(less than 10%), I could let the sled run indoors and it did not smoke out my garage,it used % 20 less fuel and 30% less oil, I ran it all season on 1 set of plugs, and it started first pull every time, even after being stuck upside down in a tree hole for 1hr. Think outside the box, and it will still cost less that a pOS four stroke that weighs more, makes less power per CC and is louder than my newborn baby......

CamP wrote: Add $1000 to the bikes and they will sell like hot cakes...not.

It would still be about a grand less than a new valve muncher.

I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes.



I have to agree with Suns_PSD about what I'd like to see made- that sounds like one heck of a great bike.

CamP

C100_139826380_1291095094

Posts: 6727

Joined: 8/16/2006

Location: Colleyville, TX USA

6/10/2011 8:06 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2011 8:19 AM

Matt Fisher wrote: It would still be about a grand less than a new valve muncher.

I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes.



I have to agree with Suns_PSD about what I'd like to see made- that sounds like one heck of a great bike.

"I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes."

The manufacturers sold less than 50k units of competition dirt bikes last year. That's down about 950,000 units from 30 years ago. Between the economy and the expensive technological bike developments, this sport is on it's death bed. Making the bikes more expensive is the last thing this sport needs.

redalert144

C100_4d1ca80f_6f36_4b4a_8791_63d485ac5510_14480_0000123d6b1113b9_zps1be9199d_1387975917

Posts: 1756

Joined: 5/24/2009

Location: Yuma, AZ USA

6/10/2011 8:46 AM

CamP wrote: Add $1000 to the bikes and they will sell like hot cakes...not.

Matt Fisher wrote: It would still be about a grand less than a new valve muncher.

I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes.



I have to agree with Suns_PSD about what I'd like to see made- that sounds like one heck of a great bike.

CamP wrote: "I understand your point CamP, and you are correct about it increasing the complexity and potentially the cost. The same can be said about linkages, cartridge forks, bladder shocks, liquid cooling, power valves, and even disk brakes."

The manufacturers sold less than 50k units of competition dirt bikes last year. That's down about 950,000 units from 30 years ago. Between the economy and the expensive technological bike developments, this sport is on it's death bed. Making the bikes more expensive is the last thing this sport needs.

What I don't understand is, every other thing in the world has an entry level, MX has a POS trail bike or top of the line race bike. Why don't these manufacturers have a decent MX entry level bike? 125cc 2 stroke with steel handelbars etc, that way the sticker shock doesn't scare off possible new riders

CamP

C100_139826380_1291095094

Posts: 6727

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Location: Colleyville, TX USA

6/10/2011 8:55 AM

redalert144 wrote: What I don't understand is, every other thing in the world has an entry level, MX has a POS trail bike or top of the line race bike. Why don't these manufacturers have a decent MX entry level bike? 125cc 2 stroke with steel handelbars etc, that way the sticker shock doesn't scare off possible new riders

Why? Because the average motocrosser wants Dom Perignon Champagne but only has a beer budget. They say they want bikes with latest and greatest technological gizmos, then when they see the $9,000 price tags they don't buy them. This is a blue collar, red neck sport. We can't afford F1 technology.

redalert144

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Posts: 1756

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Location: Yuma, AZ USA

6/10/2011 9:01 AM

What I'm talking about is, like with cars you have different trim levels. I can go get a brand new 20k work truck or I can get a 60k truck with all the bells and whistles. I just think that if the guys would sell a stripped down version of their race bikes, that people had the ability to upgrade as needed, you'll sell a ton more bikes total

RMT

C100_dubzilla13

Posts: 434

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Location: AZ, USA

6/10/2011 9:12 AM

The new 2013 Can Am MX250 will have a 250cc E-Tec Rotax engine. It will be the lightest bike made and have more power than a 450cc 4 stroke. It will have better fuel economy, therefore reducing the size of the tank and associated weight of the fuel. It will burn cleaner than any 2 stroke ever made. It will also be very quiet. It will have a completely different frame based off of current aircraft technology. All this, for $8999. Yes, it will be expensive, but Can -Am's like BMW and Mercedes, are not for everyone.

queen of spodes

C100_gopr1761

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Location: Atlanta, GA USA

6/10/2011 9:42 AM

RMT wrote: The new 2013 Can Am MX250 will have a 250cc E-Tec Rotax engine. It will be the lightest bike made and have more power than a 450cc 4 stroke. It will have better fuel economy, therefore reducing the size of the tank and associated weight of the fuel. It will burn cleaner than any 2 stroke ever made. It will also be very quiet. It will have a completely different frame based off of current aircraft technology. All this, for $8999. Yes, it will be expensive, but Can -Am's like BMW and Mercedes, are not for everyone.

link please

miedosoracing1

C100_450f_rider

Posts: 1785

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Location: Dallas, TX USA

6/10/2011 9:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/10/2011 10:02 AM

Don't be a 2 Stroke Racist. Join in the fight for equality. CC vs CC side by side.
We should no longer be concerned with color, size, stroke preferences or make. I'm not a 4 stroker, "not that there is anything wrong with it."

Orange724

C100_102531270_1293319706

Posts: 340

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Location: Vancouver, WA USA

6/10/2011 11:05 AM

Haha, hell yeah to that 2 stroke rider.

"push those four strokes up boys"

Haha, awesome vid.

I have an 09 250sx, but I will not throw down on a new bike until the DI comes out.

I think DI will finally bring the 2 stroke to the top again.

When I'm trail riding here's some conss of my 2 stroke compared to my 4 stroke riding buddies:
-I don't trust it idiling very long, while my 4 stroke buddies let their bikes sit and idle all the time.
-Coasting down hills my bike loads up and fouls plugs if I don't pull in the clutch and blip the throttle.
-They burn noticibly less fuel.

From what I've read and watched vids about DI it sounds like it will fix these last few issues that hold the 2 stroke back from certain buyers.

I just hope it doesn't nueter the 2 stroke hit.

RMT

C100_dubzilla13

Posts: 434

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Location: AZ, USA

6/10/2011 11:35 AM

RMT wrote: The new 2013 Can Am MX250 will have a 250cc E-Tec Rotax engine. It will be the lightest bike made and have more power than a 450cc 4 stroke. It will have better fuel economy, therefore reducing the size of the tank and associated weight of the fuel. It will burn cleaner than any 2 stroke ever made. It will also be very quiet. It will have a completely different frame based off of current aircraft technology. All this, for $8999. Yes, it will be expensive, but Can -Am's like BMW and Mercedes, are not for everyone.

queen of spodes wrote: link please

I have inside info and cant post a link or reveal my source. lol. It was a joke, but if BRP wanted to get back into MX bikes, that is what it would be like.
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