Is it possible to be too light for a 450?

ga_pike
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ga_pike
Edited Date/Time 5/26/2014 10:42pm
Not that I will ever have this problem, but I've been reading the comments about JS7 and bike setup and I've watched Glen Helen a couple of times now. He does seem to get bounced around quite a bit. I also noticed some of the other "smaller" guys with similar issues. Is it possible that JS7 is too light for the bike in general? Would he be better off if he added 20 pounds to his frame? Not that I'm suggesting a strict diet of Fat Burgers and Baconators, but some muscle mass may help with overall bike control.

Thoughts?
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IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 5/26/2014 6:28pm
5/26/2014 6:28pm
ga_pike wrote:
Not that I will ever have this problem, but I've been reading the comments about JS7 and bike setup and I've watched Glen Helen a couple...
Not that I will ever have this problem, but I've been reading the comments about JS7 and bike setup and I've watched Glen Helen a couple of times now. He does seem to get bounced around quite a bit. I also noticed some of the other "smaller" guys with similar issues. Is it possible that JS7 is too light for the bike in general? Would he be better off if he added 20 pounds to his frame? Not that I'm suggesting a strict diet of Fat Burgers and Baconators, but some muscle mass may help with overall bike control.

Thoughts?
I think Stewarts issue was strictly set up. Not weight. If his gh results were typical, I might agree with you about packing more muscle. But his gh results aren't typical.

To answer the generic question, I do think there is some point where you don't have any business on the 450 (outside of rider capability) but I think the weight is much lower than the 165 mark.
fulltime wrench 5/26/2014 6:31pm
5/26/2014 6:31pm
If a guy lacking skill is small and light on a 450, he could be in for it.

If he is a badass, no matter.

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bd
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bd 5/26/2014 7:17pm
5/26/2014 7:17pm
Holy fuck - Stewie went 24-0 on a 450F, he will be fine
olds cool
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olds cool 5/26/2014 7:24pm
5/26/2014 7:24pm
Just put him on a 250 smoker and it will be a win /win for everybody!Silly
hartebreak
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hartebreak 5/26/2014 7:25pm
5/26/2014 7:25pm
Alessi was tiny when He came up on the 450. It's skill more than weight.
Flip109
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Flip109 5/26/2014 7:40pm
5/26/2014 7:40pm
RandyS wrote:
Just stop. [img]https://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130712135011/glee/images/4/4b/POlar_facepalm.jpg[/img]
Just stop.
X 10
rmpilot
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rmpilot 5/26/2014 7:48pm
5/26/2014 7:48pm
The Rock wrote:
Jeff Ward was a 500cc specialist.
who won 125 and 250 national championships
40Plus_922mx
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40Plus_922mx 5/26/2014 7:59pm
5/26/2014 7:59pm
Too light? No. Too weak? Yes.
In other words it doesn't matter how light you are. But it does matter that you have some pupose built muscle mass in order to handle it at this level. RV started working out certain muscles while still on a 250 in order to prepare for the weight and torque of the big thump.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 5/26/2014 8:27pm
5/26/2014 8:27pm
The Rock wrote:
Jeff Ward was a 500cc specialist.
rmpilot wrote:
who won 125 and 250 national championships
And was a HUGE contributor to the 250W SX title in 2014.
JM485
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JM485 5/26/2014 8:28pm
5/26/2014 8:28pm
I'm less than 150 lbs and can ride a 500 no problem, so I don't think it's a weight thing. Interesting idea though, especially considering the stiff frame.
StartedTooLate 5/26/2014 9:04pm
5/26/2014 9:04pm Edited Date/Time 5/26/2014 9:35pm
ga_pike wrote:
Not that I will ever have this problem, but I've been reading the comments about JS7 and bike setup and I've watched Glen Helen a couple...
Not that I will ever have this problem, but I've been reading the comments about JS7 and bike setup and I've watched Glen Helen a couple of times now. He does seem to get bounced around quite a bit. I also noticed some of the other "smaller" guys with similar issues. Is it possible that JS7 is too light for the bike in general? Would he be better off if he added 20 pounds to his frame? Not that I'm suggesting a strict diet of Fat Burgers and Baconators, but some muscle mass may help with overall bike control.

Thoughts?
I think most of the pros would go faster on a 250cc MX bike with open displacement...bored and stroked out to about 315-325cc, and then built to a pro level. Keep the 250 cc gearbox. Adding stroke and displacement adds almost no bike weight. The problem with the KTM 350 is they took the 450 and went down, not the 250 up. Waste of time as they were saddled with the weight of the 350 box, etc.

I ride an 06 315. Everyone who has ever ridden it commented that it was the easiest to ride fast bike they have ever ridden. All that added displacement (+26% over stock) plus a few minor mods...probably has HP in the range of 43-44. You HAVE to go bore and stroke. If you go bore only...the motor does not work. The 315 is 4mm over on bore, +7.4mm on stroke. Any longer and stroke, and case modes are needed. You could probably take this stroke all the way to 330 cc.... I can not imagine what you could do with this platform in the hands of a top MX team with a good motor program.

Start with a modern EFI bike (14 YZ250f would be ideal...but I would want to wait till they got the tranny shaft failures straightened out!), cams, porting, re-mapping, higher comp, oxy gas...and you would be 50+ HP...but at 250 weight...and no need rev the bike as much as a built 250, meaning it will still handle in the corners...less gyro. The problem, I believe, is the AMA rules. Even in the 450 class...you have to run a stock cylinder on a production run of 200+. Yamaha would have to market 200 of these bikes for retail sale to make it AMA legal. It would really not be that hard. Special crank. Billet CNC cylinder and liner. Special motor mounts. They would be expensive bikes...probably $11K...but I would buy one in a heartbeat.

A guy like James (any pro actually) on a bike like this would be something to see. It is no secret that pros can get away with things on a 250 that would put them on the dirt on a 450. A bike like this would allow a guy like James (most pros actually) to do all he can do...and be able to keep it upright. In SX...this would hold even more true. This would definitely the the fastest SX combo....
Matt Fisher
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Matt Fisher 5/26/2014 10:42pm
5/26/2014 10:42pm
ga_pike wrote:
Not that I will ever have this problem, but I've been reading the comments about JS7 and bike setup and I've watched Glen Helen a couple...
Not that I will ever have this problem, but I've been reading the comments about JS7 and bike setup and I've watched Glen Helen a couple of times now. He does seem to get bounced around quite a bit. I also noticed some of the other "smaller" guys with similar issues. Is it possible that JS7 is too light for the bike in general? Would he be better off if he added 20 pounds to his frame? Not that I'm suggesting a strict diet of Fat Burgers and Baconators, but some muscle mass may help with overall bike control.

Thoughts?
StartedTooLate wrote:
I think most of the pros would go faster on a 250cc MX bike with open displacement...bored and stroked out to about 315-325cc, and then built...
I think most of the pros would go faster on a 250cc MX bike with open displacement...bored and stroked out to about 315-325cc, and then built to a pro level. Keep the 250 cc gearbox. Adding stroke and displacement adds almost no bike weight. The problem with the KTM 350 is they took the 450 and went down, not the 250 up. Waste of time as they were saddled with the weight of the 350 box, etc.

I ride an 06 315. Everyone who has ever ridden it commented that it was the easiest to ride fast bike they have ever ridden. All that added displacement (+26% over stock) plus a few minor mods...probably has HP in the range of 43-44. You HAVE to go bore and stroke. If you go bore only...the motor does not work. The 315 is 4mm over on bore, +7.4mm on stroke. Any longer and stroke, and case modes are needed. You could probably take this stroke all the way to 330 cc.... I can not imagine what you could do with this platform in the hands of a top MX team with a good motor program.

Start with a modern EFI bike (14 YZ250f would be ideal...but I would want to wait till they got the tranny shaft failures straightened out!), cams, porting, re-mapping, higher comp, oxy gas...and you would be 50+ HP...but at 250 weight...and no need rev the bike as much as a built 250, meaning it will still handle in the corners...less gyro. The problem, I believe, is the AMA rules. Even in the 450 class...you have to run a stock cylinder on a production run of 200+. Yamaha would have to market 200 of these bikes for retail sale to make it AMA legal. It would really not be that hard. Special crank. Billet CNC cylinder and liner. Special motor mounts. They would be expensive bikes...probably $11K...but I would buy one in a heartbeat.

A guy like James (any pro actually) on a bike like this would be something to see. It is no secret that pros can get away with things on a 250 that would put them on the dirt on a 450. A bike like this would allow a guy like James (most pros actually) to do all he can do...and be able to keep it upright. In SX...this would hold even more true. This would definitely the the fastest SX combo....
50+ hp, 211 pounds? Damn, that sounds like a stock KTM250SX. You know, the 2 stroke that's nowhere near $11K.

Sorry, I just had to. Laughing

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