I wonder how Honda feels?

rcm406
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Edited Date/Time 1/23/2014 3:55pm
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't make Honda look very good! And on top of that, Barcia is not living up to expectations, and Canard and Tomac are out hurt.
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1/22/2014 4:28am
rcm406 wrote:
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't...
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't make Honda look very good! And on top of that, Barcia is not living up to expectations, and Canard and Tomac are out hurt.
its hardly breaking news that honda arent competetive anymore! they've not been in the championship hunt on either side of the pond for a long time!
MxKing809
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1/22/2014 4:31am
The thing I've always looks at when deciding a bike purchase is...... What bike are the top privateers on?

The guys that are true privateers (place 15-20) don't have the money to drastically mod a bike like teams do so they tend to be on the most complete bike package from the get go.

Honda has a big showing in the 'we buy our own bike' pro market, which I read into a lot.

Guys like Reed can afford to test and change every angle on triple clamps, linkages, sub frame height, frame flex, etc.
1/22/2014 4:36am
MxKing809 wrote:
The thing I've always looks at when deciding a bike purchase is...... What bike are the top privateers on? The guys that are true privateers (place...
The thing I've always looks at when deciding a bike purchase is...... What bike are the top privateers on?

The guys that are true privateers (place 15-20) don't have the money to drastically mod a bike like teams do so they tend to be on the most complete bike package from the get go.

Honda has a big showing in the 'we buy our own bike' pro market, which I read into a lot.

Guys like Reed can afford to test and change every angle on triple clamps, linkages, sub frame height, frame flex, etc.
I think it's more due to the fact of Honda's reputation of being the most reliable. And probably the support they get from their local shops.

The Shop

shredder22
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1/22/2014 4:39am
I always see a lot of red in the 250 class.

It has been a bummer so far for Honda with their 450 effort so far though.
visser62
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1/22/2014 4:48am
I don't think it bothers them too much while they're counting their money.
Panic_Rev
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1/22/2014 4:50am
MxKing809 wrote:
The thing I've always looks at when deciding a bike purchase is...... What bike are the top privateers on? The guys that are true privateers (place...
The thing I've always looks at when deciding a bike purchase is...... What bike are the top privateers on?

The guys that are true privateers (place 15-20) don't have the money to drastically mod a bike like teams do so they tend to be on the most complete bike package from the get go.

Honda has a big showing in the 'we buy our own bike' pro market, which I read into a lot.

Guys like Reed can afford to test and change every angle on triple clamps, linkages, sub frame height, frame flex, etc.
I think it's more due to the fact of Honda's reputation of being the most reliable. And probably the support they get from their local shops.
Also contingency money plays a roll when choosing which bike to race.
MXD
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1/22/2014 4:51am
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to have regressed from last year.
1/22/2014 4:53am
rcm406 wrote:
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't...
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't make Honda look very good! And on top of that, Barcia is not living up to expectations, and Canard and Tomac are out hurt.
its hardly breaking news that honda arent competetive anymore! they've not been in the championship hunt on either side of the pond for a long time!
Reed in 2011, indoors just a few points behind Poto and outdoors points leader until he had the chadapult in Millville.
Reed in 2012 before he went down in Dallas.
Thats not that far ago.
In the 250s they are always good.

In the GPs... Well, not so much.

A healthy Tomac would be right in the mix and I guess we have to wait and see what he's capable of.
TRON
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1/22/2014 4:54am
If honda really cared what people thought, they'd bring back two strokes. Instead, they're counting their money and laughing all the way to the bank.
1/22/2014 4:57am
MXD wrote:
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to...
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to have regressed from last year.
Me too!
He was so good in his heat race in A1 when he catched, passed and left Stewart.
hvaughn88
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1/22/2014 5:10am
MXD wrote:
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to...
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to have regressed from last year.
Matthes seems to hint that barcia's struggles may have more to do with off the track stuff, like already trying to get his deals done for next year. Maybe a little bit of focus in other areas
mxdude105
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1/22/2014 5:46am
Barcia and Canard are great riders and I'm sure both will win 450 races for Honda this year. However I really don't see either of them winning a 450 title against this current field, barring injury to the other front runners. Canard has the speed and fitness, IMO, but when you're only getting one healthy year in among several injury riddled ones, it's gonna be tough to build the foundation you need to contend for championships. Barcia stays off the ground and occasionally has the speed, but after last summer (and even going back to his 250 days against Tomac and Baggett) I do not think he has the fitness to beat Dungey and Villopoto for a title.

Tomac is another story. Once he comes back healthy and gets a full 450 season under his belt, I do think he can win a title in the premier class. He has the full package, where the other two have hangups that I think will be their undoing.
Zycki11
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1/22/2014 6:29am
Hondas 450 is getting a bad rep similar to the regen Yamaha. From what everyone was saying, both Canard and Barcia were flying in the off season. Barcia came out swinging. If you are Honda, Barcia is a great bet for a title as well as Eli. It will sort itself out
TooOldToPlay
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1/22/2014 6:46am
You’re kidding yourself if you think that Honda “doesn’t care” or are “laughing and counting their money”. That is a company that demands performance, and you can be sure there is a whole lot of pressure coming out of Japan right now for some immediate results to support their investment. With the injuries to Tomac and Canard, the pressure falls onto Barcia. I’m pretty sure the mood in the race shop right now is very high-stressed. I also think (hope) Barcia's results will improve as the series heads east.
1/22/2014 6:53am
so far, SX 14 big boy podiums by brand
KTM 4
Kaw 3
Yam 1
Suz 1
Honda 0
If it keeps going anything like this it will be the 11th year in row Honda has gone title less in the big boy class...
1/22/2014 7:14am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2014 7:17am
Not a die hard Honda guy or anything but I don't really think that there's anything too wrong with Honda's current 450, rather it's more a case of not quite having the riders. Potential championship contenders one day? Sure. But for now they need time.

In regards to Justin, I thought that he'd be a lot more spectacular on the 450 last year. I thought he'd be throwing in wheels everywhere with all or nothing speed and creating all sorts of drama. But overall his 450 career has so far been fairly quiet - apparently choosing to ride steady over wild, which isn't necessarily a bad strategy. He's been solid. Obviously Canard is once again injured and Tomac is an unknown quantity on the bigger bike (and got hurt 5 seconds into the first heat race anyway).

With Chad... he's by his own admission notoriously picky over bike set-up and, again by his own admission, was significantly over weight last year. So that's probably not really fair on the current CRF 450s reputation either. They had what were widely regarded to be awesome machines in 05, 06, 07 and 08, but once more weren't really players for any big bike titles. You need the riders.
GrapeApe
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1/22/2014 8:11am
MXD wrote:
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to...
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to have regressed from last year.
hvaughn88 wrote:
Matthes seems to hint that barcia's struggles may have more to do with off the track stuff, like already trying to get his deals done for...
Matthes seems to hint that barcia's struggles may have more to do with off the track stuff, like already trying to get his deals done for next year. Maybe a little bit of focus in other areas
Have you seen his gear at the first 3 rounds? Would you blame him if he spent every waking moment trying to get out of his gear contract?
1/22/2014 8:21am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2014 8:23am
Not a die hard Honda guy or anything but I don't really think that there's anything too wrong with Honda's current 450, rather it's more a...
Not a die hard Honda guy or anything but I don't really think that there's anything too wrong with Honda's current 450, rather it's more a case of not quite having the riders. Potential championship contenders one day? Sure. But for now they need time.

In regards to Justin, I thought that he'd be a lot more spectacular on the 450 last year. I thought he'd be throwing in wheels everywhere with all or nothing speed and creating all sorts of drama. But overall his 450 career has so far been fairly quiet - apparently choosing to ride steady over wild, which isn't necessarily a bad strategy. He's been solid. Obviously Canard is once again injured and Tomac is an unknown quantity on the bigger bike (and got hurt 5 seconds into the first heat race anyway).

With Chad... he's by his own admission notoriously picky over bike set-up and, again by his own admission, was significantly over weight last year. So that's probably not really fair on the current CRF 450s reputation either. They had what were widely regarded to be awesome machines in 05, 06, 07 and 08, but once more weren't really players for any big bike titles. You need the riders.
You need everything. Bike, rider, team, cash.
And everything has to go well together, certainly with the field of riders that we have today.
hvaughn88
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1/22/2014 8:31am
MXD wrote:
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to...
Barcia's struggles really have me scratching my head. With another year of development you would think the bike would be much better but he seems to have regressed from last year.
hvaughn88 wrote:
Matthes seems to hint that barcia's struggles may have more to do with off the track stuff, like already trying to get his deals done for...
Matthes seems to hint that barcia's struggles may have more to do with off the track stuff, like already trying to get his deals done for next year. Maybe a little bit of focus in other areas
GrapeApe wrote:
Have you seen his gear at the first 3 rounds? Would you blame him if he spent every waking moment trying to get out of his...
Have you seen his gear at the first 3 rounds? Would you blame him if he spent every waking moment trying to get out of his gear contract?
Haha very true, that shit doesn't float my boat
JeepnMike
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1/22/2014 8:42am
This is an honest question, but how good is Honda about supporting the amateurs and building their future champions nowadays? I know Kawasaki has this one well figured out, Suzuki used to be pretty good about it. Maybe that is part of their problem? I can't recall the last young phenom came from Honda. I know Geico has their hands on this a bit, but not the same as like Kawasaki or Suzuki. Hopefully I am not talking too far out of my ass here.
JerseyFresh
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1/22/2014 8:49am
its hardly breaking news that honda arent competetive anymore! they've not been in the championship hunt on either side of the pond for a long time!
What are you talking about? Barcia was killin it last year and Geico was the most successful 250 team by far. People on this forum have the memory of a goldfish.
GrapeApe
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1/22/2014 8:59am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2014 9:01am
JeepnMike wrote:
This is an honest question, but how good is Honda about supporting the amateurs and building their future champions nowadays? I know Kawasaki has this one...
This is an honest question, but how good is Honda about supporting the amateurs and building their future champions nowadays? I know Kawasaki has this one well figured out, Suzuki used to be pretty good about it. Maybe that is part of their problem? I can't recall the last young phenom came from Honda. I know Geico has their hands on this a bit, but not the same as like Kawasaki or Suzuki. Hopefully I am not talking too far out of my ass here.
Geico Honda consistently pulls the best talent from the amateurs, wins races and championships with them on 250's, then graduates them to the 450 where they have won more races, just not championships. Yet. They may not have Villopoto, but from B class to factory 450 I would argue they have the best all-around program.

Honorable mention to Yamaha and it's amateur to pro program. We'll see if they can keep them on blue all the way up to 450's, but they have a lot of talent in the pipeline.
1/22/2014 9:25am
rcm406 wrote:
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't...
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't make Honda look very good! And on top of that, Barcia is not living up to expectations, and Canard and Tomac are out hurt.
Barcia won on the 2013 and Canard came very close at A1. The issue was more with Reed not getting on with the bike than the bike being bad in my opinion. Reed didn't get on with the kawi in 2010, the same kawi that RV won 7 out of 14 races on before his huge crash at St Louis. Then in 2011 Reed moved to Honda and won a bunch of races, Kawi didn't give a shit about that and I'm sure Honda feels the same way at the moment. It's just Reed being Reed, the bikes are fine.

It's no secret that Reed has to have every single little thing lined up perfectly for him to show his true speed. That's why he spends millions on his own team rather than riding for RCH on $2 million dollars a year.
1/22/2014 9:39am
Apart from Ryan Villopoto, the Kawi program has been pretty bad at producing fast 450 riders in my opinion. Look at some of their recent graduates...

Pourcel - 2 250 sx titles and would have had 2 250 mx titles too if it wasn't for some unbelievably bad luck. Then he was left with no 450 ride and look what happened.

Hansen - Lead 2 250 sx championships for a while if I remember correctly. Moved to Hart&Huntington 450 with poor results and now look where he is.

Weimer - Won a 250 sx title and has had some limited success on the 450.

Tickle - Won a 250 sx title and has had some limited success on the 450, now rides for Suzuki.

Rattray - No championships after 3 years? Now moved back to Europe to ride the GPs.

These are offset pretty heavily but Villopotos huge success but look at all the results I just listed and none of them have gone on to win a main event or overall on a Kawi 450 whereas Hondas most recent graduates, Canard and Barcia have both won main events on the 450.
1/22/2014 10:29am
The suzuki is the best 450 out there, IMO...

do i feel bad for honda?? no..every time i go to a local track all i see is new crf450s and ktm's ...

people dnt care who wins on what these days..quality and brand loyalty seem to be the most important things..and i say this because i rarely see rmz's at the track and they are one of the better bikes.
GuyB
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1/22/2014 10:41am
MxKing809 wrote:
The thing I've always looks at when deciding a bike purchase is...... What bike are the top privateers on? The guys that are true privateers (place...
The thing I've always looks at when deciding a bike purchase is...... What bike are the top privateers on?

The guys that are true privateers (place 15-20) don't have the money to drastically mod a bike like teams do so they tend to be on the most complete bike package from the get go.

Honda has a big showing in the 'we buy our own bike' pro market, which I read into a lot.

Guys like Reed can afford to test and change every angle on triple clamps, linkages, sub frame height, frame flex, etc.
Competitive, yes, but I think they also tend to pay attention to which companies offer contingency support.
TannerMxer
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1/22/2014 10:47am
Honda doesn't care from a sales perspective. Of course, as a team, they want to win.

Honda will sell motorcycles because their build, quality, and reliability is top notch.
kiwifan
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1/22/2014 12:28pm
Honda will care that they are not winning but with only 1 top rider out there then hardly fair to say they are bad bikes.

Honda I am sure will be patting Reed on the back saying good job, if you TRULY believe that ALL of Reed's 2013 problems were down to the bike then you are obviously got your blinkers on.

Honda sells more MX bikes than any other manufacturer, so I am pretty sure that although they are concerned that they havent won a round this year (and for God's sake we are only rd 3!!!!!) they are happy to see a lot of sales, Honda sells because they make reliable pretty fast bikes, sure at the hands of good riders others might be faster but they have a good package...and this comes from a KTM rider.

I am not a Reed fan at all, but good on him....he has started well.....sure others have crashed or been injured but lets see how the rest of the races go, great season thus far!!!
kiwifan
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1/22/2014 12:31pm
rcm406 wrote:
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't...
Reed struggles all of 2013 on that Honda, and now 3 races in 2014 he has a 3rd and a 1st on the Kawi! It doesn't make Honda look very good! And on top of that, Barcia is not living up to expectations, and Canard and Tomac are out hurt.
By the same token those who berat Honda for not winning and come to the conclusion that the Honda is bad should also say the Suzuki is bad if that is the logic they apply, as Suzuki hasnt won this year either.

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