Herlings has equalled Everts & Hallman

Stefan82
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5/11/2014 11:15am Edited Date/Time 5/12/2014 8:01pm
As you all know Everts won 37 GP's in the 250cc World Championship from 1992 till 1999, Torsten Hallman won 37 in his career. Herlings today won his 37th GP in MX2 (250) at Talavera de la Reina, 27 of does came with both moto wins.
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rebus
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5/11/2014 11:19am
In my opinion, the fastest rider in the world, outdoors.
jamma10
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5/11/2014 11:39am
On a gnarly, hard pack track no less.

One trick pony...?
Dx3moto
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5/11/2014 11:43am Edited Date/Time 5/11/2014 11:44am
I'd like to see how he does against our best, not to bring up the AMA vs FIM topic that everyone hates, but I definitely believe that our best is a lot quicker than his competition in Europe. I wish he'd move up to MX1, go after that title against Cairoli, then come to America while he's still pretty young and race 250 outdoors. I don't think he would win as much here as he does there, but he'd definitely do really good. I think he's "sandbagging" the MX2 class to get an insane all-time wins record in the class that'd be untouchable. No doubt he's the most dominant rider in the world right now (Wins to losses).
dv12.com
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5/11/2014 11:54am
Stefan82 wrote:
As you all know Everts won 37 GP's in the 250cc World Championship from 1992 till 1999, Torsten Hallman won 37 in his career. Herlings today...
As you all know Everts won 37 GP's in the 250cc World Championship from 1992 till 1999, Torsten Hallman won 37 in his career. Herlings today won his 37th GP in MX2 (250) at Talavera de la Reina, 27 of does came with both moto wins.
Are seriously comparing MX2 under 23 GP race wins against 250cc 2 stroke GP race wins? Herlings is a great rider and will be a legend but you are disrespecting Everts and Hallman with his comparison...

The Shop

DC
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5/11/2014 12:03pm
No offense to Jeffrey, who is a fantastic rider, but there were half as many GPs back in Torsten Hallman's day as there are now, and he raced in the premier class. Same goes for Roger DeCoster and Heikki Mikkola, who Herlings passed in the last two races. It's hard to compare flat-out GP wins when the schedule (and the rules) are so different.

It would be like counting 125/Lites/250 SX main events the same in the record book as a premier-class win.

DC
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KlootZak
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5/11/2014 12:16pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2014 12:17pm
Herlings was about to race some rounds at the AMA (Millville & Unadilla) but it is not certain anymore due to his shoulder injuries (and from the previous records of KTM, it is most likely he will not be allowed to race them ...)

source (but it's dutch)
Bultaco
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5/11/2014 1:47pm
Thank you David and Davey for sticking up for the difference between GPs in the past and GPs today. And Hallman, Decoster, et all. I still feel a World Championship (vs National Championship) should be the ultimate accomplishment in Motocross, but understand the world has changed.

Still, hats off to Herlings for his riding and wins.
109
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5/11/2014 2:45pm
Davey - Herlings can't rack up his talley with 2 or even 3 (happened once) GP wins in one day, so do you also want to discount everts as in 2003 he could have potentially won three events each round?
Also an MX2 World Championship is not comparable to E and W SX. It's comparable to the nationals which when counting an overall win talley they use.
The one thing this guy is completely incorrect about is comparing the old 250 2 stroke class to the current 250F class in Everts' time. In the 90s the 250 2 stroke class was the premiere class. In the case of Hallman it is pretty accurate as the 500 class was the premiere class until the late 80s early 90s. So the 125 class and 250 classes by the same standard were not premier class wins.
Capone
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5/11/2014 2:48pm
DC wrote:
No offense to Jeffrey, who is a fantastic rider, but there were half as many GPs back in Torsten Hallman's day as there are now, and...
No offense to Jeffrey, who is a fantastic rider, but there were half as many GPs back in Torsten Hallman's day as there are now, and he raced in the premier class. Same goes for Roger DeCoster and Heikki Mikkola, who Herlings passed in the last two races. It's hard to compare flat-out GP wins when the schedule (and the rules) are so different.

It would be like counting 125/Lites/250 SX main events the same in the record book as a premier-class win.

DC
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Davy, with all due respect, Hallman raced in the 250cc world championship, against Joel Robert, while tough competition, not the premier class, that honor belongs to the 500cc class
DC
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5/11/2014 5:51pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2014 6:02pm
109 and Capone, my bad, you are correct about Hallman being on a 250, and it was not as coveted as the 500 title, and I know some of Mikkola's wins came against 250s in 1976... Though it was Gennady Moisseev and Jaroslav Falta and Vladimir Kavinov. My point was the 23-year-old rule, which I think narrows down the class. It would have knocked Gaston Rahier, Harry Everts, Alex Puzar, Bob Moore and Alessio Chiodi out of the 125 class in championship years
109, I don't understand the nationals comparison, unless you mean the numbers of events in a series, which I do understand. There were four 125 nationals in '74, and now there are 12 rounds.
I am a fan of Jeffrey's, he is a bad dude, but it's weird to see those numbers at age 20... Surely the absence of Roczen and Musquin to America, and Searle and Van Horebeek to the MXGP class have made those numbers easier to attain than they were for Hallman, Mikkola and DeCoster.
As for Everts, I do agree his double and (one) triple wins make his numbers bigger than anyone else can ever have a fair shot to reach, and that would make a fair comparison for AC222: take out Stefan'a unique opportunity to win multiple races in '03 (?) and see how they match up... But please be sure to include the number of rounds in a season too.
Bench racing is better than Stella Artois!

DC
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hillbilly
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5/11/2014 6:18pm
Races from 70's and early 80's can no be compared in any way but they were both on dirt.

The tracks were beat,or trails with no tractor or water truck in sight.

The beating one took back then is double or 3 times what the bike transfers to a rider today.

And the dust killed ones lungs.

The amount the riders sit down today is really amazing,I watch as guys kinda goon it with elbows down and shake my head.

The only time you sat back then was during a slow turn.

JH may have won back then just as much but those guys would raced more years on todays tracks.
scooterB
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5/11/2014 7:46pm
Cut that number in half if Kroc was still overseas
5/11/2014 8:32pm
They are not even the same class, Hallman and Everts wins were in the 250/450 class, Herlings is in the 125/250 class. Herlings still doesn't have a single win in the premier class.
109
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5/12/2014 12:06pm
DC wrote:
109 and Capone, my bad, you are correct about Hallman being on a 250, and it was not as coveted as the 500 title, and I...
109 and Capone, my bad, you are correct about Hallman being on a 250, and it was not as coveted as the 500 title, and I know some of Mikkola's wins came against 250s in 1976... Though it was Gennady Moisseev and Jaroslav Falta and Vladimir Kavinov. My point was the 23-year-old rule, which I think narrows down the class. It would have knocked Gaston Rahier, Harry Everts, Alex Puzar, Bob Moore and Alessio Chiodi out of the 125 class in championship years
109, I don't understand the nationals comparison, unless you mean the numbers of events in a series, which I do understand. There were four 125 nationals in '74, and now there are 12 rounds.
I am a fan of Jeffrey's, he is a bad dude, but it's weird to see those numbers at age 20... Surely the absence of Roczen and Musquin to America, and Searle and Van Horebeek to the MXGP class have made those numbers easier to attain than they were for Hallman, Mikkola and DeCoster.
As for Everts, I do agree his double and (one) triple wins make his numbers bigger than anyone else can ever have a fair shot to reach, and that would make a fair comparison for AC222: take out Stefan'a unique opportunity to win multiple races in '03 (?) and see how they match up... But please be sure to include the number of rounds in a season too.
Bench racing is better than Stella Artois!

DC
MX Sports
DC - you stated "It would be like counting 125/Lites/250 SX main events the same in the record book as a premier-class win". What I am saying is 250 GP wins are comparable to 250 national wins not east/west wins and RCs 26 125 wins are counted towards his national win tally if 150, even though they are not premier class.

Herlings is just a victim of his own success and high standards he has set. It is not indicative that his competition is slow it's that he is that good. At Leirop in 2012 his 2nd Moto race time was 39:23 for 19 laps, the fastest Cairoli was for 19 laps was 40:20 in the first Moto (smoother track).

How many time has Baggett, Wilson, tomac, Roczen done the same amount of laps as RV, Dungey, JS7 a minute faster or just faster at any track when in different classes? Did JS7 ever do it to RC when he was on a 125?

Side note: cairoli did his first GP season in 2002 and raced MX2 until 2008 (7 seasons) JH first GP season was 2010 he is now in his 5th MX2 season - if you want to level the playing field with Cairoli then JH should get 2 more years in MX2!
FreshTopEnd
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5/12/2014 12:16pm
DC wrote:
No offense to Jeffrey, who is a fantastic rider, but there were half as many GPs back in Torsten Hallman's day as there are now, and...
No offense to Jeffrey, who is a fantastic rider, but there were half as many GPs back in Torsten Hallman's day as there are now, and he raced in the premier class. Same goes for Roger DeCoster and Heikki Mikkola, who Herlings passed in the last two races. It's hard to compare flat-out GP wins when the schedule (and the rules) are so different.

It would be like counting 125/Lites/250 SX main events the same in the record book as a premier-class win.

DC
MX Sports
Not only that, but I think it's worth taking into account that the bikes then were not even close to being as reliable as today's bikes. A lot of DNF's back then, so much the case that in the early era riders had a few toss out races that would not count in the points total.

And, of course, Hallman raced Joel Robert throughout much of those two riders' careers, where the two of them pretty much had a stranglehold on the 250 title (Hallman 1962-63, 1966-67 ; Robert 1964, 1968-72). No disrespect to Herlings's impressive talent, but he's not facing that sort of challenge
DanDunes818
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5/12/2014 12:22pm
DC wrote:
109 and Capone, my bad, you are correct about Hallman being on a 250, and it was not as coveted as the 500 title, and I...
109 and Capone, my bad, you are correct about Hallman being on a 250, and it was not as coveted as the 500 title, and I know some of Mikkola's wins came against 250s in 1976... Though it was Gennady Moisseev and Jaroslav Falta and Vladimir Kavinov. My point was the 23-year-old rule, which I think narrows down the class. It would have knocked Gaston Rahier, Harry Everts, Alex Puzar, Bob Moore and Alessio Chiodi out of the 125 class in championship years
109, I don't understand the nationals comparison, unless you mean the numbers of events in a series, which I do understand. There were four 125 nationals in '74, and now there are 12 rounds.
I am a fan of Jeffrey's, he is a bad dude, but it's weird to see those numbers at age 20... Surely the absence of Roczen and Musquin to America, and Searle and Van Horebeek to the MXGP class have made those numbers easier to attain than they were for Hallman, Mikkola and DeCoster.
As for Everts, I do agree his double and (one) triple wins make his numbers bigger than anyone else can ever have a fair shot to reach, and that would make a fair comparison for AC222: take out Stefan'a unique opportunity to win multiple races in '03 (?) and see how they match up... But please be sure to include the number of rounds in a season too.
Bench racing is better than Stella Artois!

DC
MX Sports
109 wrote:
DC - you stated "It would be like counting 125/Lites/250 SX main events the same in the record book as a premier-class win". What I am...
DC - you stated "It would be like counting 125/Lites/250 SX main events the same in the record book as a premier-class win". What I am saying is 250 GP wins are comparable to 250 national wins not east/west wins and RCs 26 125 wins are counted towards his national win tally if 150, even though they are not premier class.

Herlings is just a victim of his own success and high standards he has set. It is not indicative that his competition is slow it's that he is that good. At Leirop in 2012 his 2nd Moto race time was 39:23 for 19 laps, the fastest Cairoli was for 19 laps was 40:20 in the first Moto (smoother track).

How many time has Baggett, Wilson, tomac, Roczen done the same amount of laps as RV, Dungey, JS7 a minute faster or just faster at any track when in different classes? Did JS7 ever do it to RC when he was on a 125?

Side note: cairoli did his first GP season in 2002 and raced MX2 until 2008 (7 seasons) JH first GP season was 2010 he is now in his 5th MX2 season - if you want to level the playing field with Cairoli then JH should get 2 more years in MX2!
I believe DC's main point is that the 23 year old rule has taken away from the 250 class. And, I agree. You cannot compare Cairoli's years in MX2, because his best competition was not being forced out of the class. As soon as they made the 23 year old rule, they took all the luster out of the class IMO.
DC
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5/12/2014 12:38pm
109, I did not mean to discount MX2 GPs as they compare to 125 Nationals, but rather since they changed the rule to get all of the 23-and-up riders out, which cuts down the field of challengers to Herlings considerably. It's not an "open" classification, which the 250 Nationals in America are, though not 250 SX. Like I said, the past greats of the class -- Rahier, Harry Everts, Puzar, Chioidi and even Bob Moore wouldn't have been allowed in that class when they were winning their titles.

If I were Herlings I would do whatever was right for myself and my team, no problem there. But its hard to compare his 37 wins in this class to Roger DeCoster's 37 wins during his era, when all of the best stayed in Europe (and many Americans joined them) and classes were not restricted by age, nor were there 17 rounds like there are now.

Nonetheless, he's beating the competition he has now in extremely dominant fashion, unlike anyone in motocross history anywhere since Carmichael's 27 450 Nationals wins in a row from 2003-2005. When he reaches that number (and he no doubt will) it's going to be just as hard to compare what Carmichael was up against to who Jeffrey is racing now.

Finally, comparing Herlings' times to anyone in the sand is difficult. He's amazing, no doubt, but he's had lifelong access to sand tracks and truly flies in it. But how do you think he would do in, say, the Georgia Dome? Because over here guys spend half their time practicing supercross, and without many sand tracks to race or even ride upon, the guys you mention don't get much work in the sand.

DC
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mjskier
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5/12/2014 2:14pm
...No disrespect to Herlings's impressive talent, but he's not facing that sort of challenge

But then again, is it because the rest of the field is not good enough, or because Herling is that much better?
Kind of like RC's and James' 24-0 seasons.
KlootZak
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5/12/2014 2:20pm
mjskier wrote:
[b]...No disrespect to Herlings's impressive talent, but he's not facing that sort of challenge[/b] But then again, is it because the rest of the field is...
...No disrespect to Herlings's impressive talent, but he's not facing that sort of challenge

But then again, is it because the rest of the field is not good enough, or because Herling is that much better?
Kind of like RC's and James' 24-0 seasons.
There is only one correct answer here: both

I think Herlings would still win the outdoors championship in the AMA but not in the same fashion as in the GPs
GuyB
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5/12/2014 3:22pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2014 3:31pm
dv12.com wrote:
Are seriously comparing MX2 under 23 GP race wins against 250cc 2 stroke GP race wins? Herlings is a great rider and will be a legend...
Are seriously comparing MX2 under 23 GP race wins against 250cc 2 stroke GP race wins? Herlings is a great rider and will be a legend but you are disrespecting Everts and Hallman with his comparison...
Thanks, DV. Glad I wasn't the only one thinking it.

45-minute motos would be one big difference.
newmann
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5/12/2014 3:34pm
How many armed border guards has Herlings had to bribe to get his own bike to the race?
Brent
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5/12/2014 7:36pm
Who is Herlings competing against again? Tonus? Anstie?

Time to move up Jeffery, Clement and Tony are waiting.
TDeath21
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5/12/2014 8:01pm
mjskier wrote:
[b]...No disrespect to Herlings's impressive talent, but he's not facing that sort of challenge[/b] But then again, is it because the rest of the field is...
...No disrespect to Herlings's impressive talent, but he's not facing that sort of challenge

But then again, is it because the rest of the field is not good enough, or because Herling is that much better?
Kind of like RC's and James' 24-0 seasons.
Difference being Carmichael and Stewart were in the premier class. Huge step up in talent there.

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