Full Tilt CR250 Build - MXA Two Stroke Hall of Fame

swatdoc
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swatdoc 12/24/2015 10:56pm
12/24/2015 10:56pm Edited Date/Time 12/24/2015 10:59pm
do you think RCR could do that with other transmissions just as easily? I'm building a CJ framed 1979 XR500 and the motor will be around 50 hp when done. I think it would do fine with only 3 speeds, and it would be nice to get rid of some excess weight at the same time.
Tbteam
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Tbteam 12/25/2015 7:16am
12/25/2015 7:16am
This thread should be a sticky, and then placed on every section of Vital.
Reefer Sutherland 12/25/2015 8:13am
12/25/2015 8:13am
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
I had that ignition. Just never bothered posting about it. Their basemap alone is worth more than any one bolt-on mod alone. 3-4hp peak.
bvm111 wrote:
You guys have me interested in the ignition, could it work on a 2006 KX250? I have a Tom Morgan tuned engine and it rips... But...
You guys have me interested in the ignition, could it work on a 2006 KX250? I have a Tom Morgan tuned engine and it rips... But I like the idea of trying new things as well, even though I really need to get my suspension set up better before I go looking for extra HP! Tongue
blackdiamond wrote:
I am almost certain it is not offered for that bike, they are only offered for the RM125, CR250 and CR500 to my knowledge. They don't...
I am almost certain it is not offered for that bike, they are only offered for the RM125, CR250 and CR500 to my knowledge. They don't really focus on MX but you could always try to get in touch with them at www.zeeltronic.com
They'll make it, but they won't have a basemap. And if you don't have an electronic powervalve it might not be worth it. You don't realize how much that PV flutters until ol 'Borut' at Zeeltronic hooks you up. I found out about those guys through cars actually. They did a Skyline ignition that was popular. Didn't end up running it in mine (megasquirted it) but they know their shit and I kept them in mind.

I'm probably preaching to the Pope, but, are you aware that, if you were so inclined, you could run multiple ignition maps, (3) and in conjunction with the TPS sending unit, and engine rpm, the CDI can detect wheelspin, and then automatically revert to the more mild of the 3 ignition maps until the wheelspin stops, then revert back to aggressive map. It would be imperceivable to the rider, but it would hook up sooo well. Toss in programmable powervalve modulation and you have a traction controlled two stroke with a electric smooth powerband.

If you were inclined.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 11:34am
12/25/2015 11:34am Edited Date/Time 12/25/2015 11:34am
VRR7 wrote:
Where does the foot peg mounts come from ? Racetech - I see they only list for the Yamaha.


HRC parts ?

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Old-School-Moto,22/Genuine-HRC-parts-for-…

http://www.vintagehonda.nl/for-sale/hrc-parts/
They are actually OEM Honda mounts from a 2015 CRF450. The latest version on the new CRF's is much better than the older ones in terms of quality. I just machined off the mud guard because I don't really feel that is necessary in SoCal and tried to lighten them up a bit. They are nickel plated instead of the black paint from the factory. Because they are so compact they actually weigh about 30 grams less than Ti mounts would and they cost about $15 each at the Honda dealer. The pics below show the peg brackets during the modification process and the finished piece on the bike. The first pic is the stock bracket on the bike.







The Shop

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blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 11:38am
12/25/2015 11:38am
swatdoc wrote:
do you think RCR could do that with other transmissions just as easily? I'm building a CJ framed 1979 XR500 and the motor will be around...
do you think RCR could do that with other transmissions just as easily? I'm building a CJ framed 1979 XR500 and the motor will be around 50 hp when done. I think it would do fine with only 3 speeds, and it would be nice to get rid of some excess weight at the same time.
They do all kinds of stuff, race cars, drag bikes, atv's. Any application you can think of for the most part.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 11:43am
12/25/2015 11:43am
bvm111 wrote:
You guys have me interested in the ignition, could it work on a 2006 KX250? I have a Tom Morgan tuned engine and it rips... But...
You guys have me interested in the ignition, could it work on a 2006 KX250? I have a Tom Morgan tuned engine and it rips... But I like the idea of trying new things as well, even though I really need to get my suspension set up better before I go looking for extra HP! Tongue
blackdiamond wrote:
I am almost certain it is not offered for that bike, they are only offered for the RM125, CR250 and CR500 to my knowledge. They don't...
I am almost certain it is not offered for that bike, they are only offered for the RM125, CR250 and CR500 to my knowledge. They don't really focus on MX but you could always try to get in touch with them at www.zeeltronic.com
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
They'll make it, but they won't have a basemap. And if you don't have an electronic powervalve it might not be worth it. You don't realize...
They'll make it, but they won't have a basemap. And if you don't have an electronic powervalve it might not be worth it. You don't realize how much that PV flutters until ol 'Borut' at Zeeltronic hooks you up. I found out about those guys through cars actually. They did a Skyline ignition that was popular. Didn't end up running it in mine (megasquirted it) but they know their shit and I kept them in mind.

I'm probably preaching to the Pope, but, are you aware that, if you were so inclined, you could run multiple ignition maps, (3) and in conjunction with the TPS sending unit, and engine rpm, the CDI can detect wheelspin, and then automatically revert to the more mild of the 3 ignition maps until the wheelspin stops, then revert back to aggressive map. It would be imperceivable to the rider, but it would hook up sooo well. Toss in programmable powervalve modulation and you have a traction controlled two stroke with a electric smooth powerband.

If you were inclined.
I was unaware that the maps could actually swap during operation, that is impressive.
bvm111
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bvm111 12/25/2015 11:53am
12/25/2015 11:53am
You know, I really was going to buy a 2016 KX450 this spring, but this thread has me wanting to do this to my KX 250 instead... dang you Black Diamond!!!! LaughingLaughingLaughing
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 12:21pm
12/25/2015 12:21pm
bvm111 wrote:
You know, I really was going to buy a 2016 KX450 this spring, but this thread has me wanting to do this to my KX 250...
You know, I really was going to buy a 2016 KX450 this spring, but this thread has me wanting to do this to my KX 250 instead... dang you Black Diamond!!!! LaughingLaughingLaughing
The KX smoker project will be more fun than any four stroke ever could be IMO
philG
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philG 12/25/2015 12:31pm
12/25/2015 12:31pm
The new TM300 has a gear position sensor , so you could run different maps for each gear, which would be handy
JW381
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JW381 12/25/2015 1:05pm
12/25/2015 1:05pm
This is the third balls out CR250 build (B120 and Hudson) since I've been a member and owned a CR2. Makes me feel like a shitty person. I'm gonna be away for a while so I'm looking forward to seeing the progress in a month. Killer start
MxKing809
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MxKing809 12/25/2015 1:11pm
12/25/2015 1:11pm
JW381 wrote:
This is the third balls out CR250 build (B120 and Hudson) since I've been a member and owned a CR2. Makes me feel like a shitty...
This is the third balls out CR250 build (B120 and Hudson) since I've been a member and owned a CR2. Makes me feel like a shitty person. I'm gonna be away for a while so I'm looking forward to seeing the progress in a month. Killer start
Wait till you see mine JW. It won't be this level but still clean to match the 125! Cool
Underground 12/25/2015 2:28pm
12/25/2015 2:28pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Here is the finished bracket. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/25/116812/s1200_20151225_111434.jpg[/img]
Here is the finished bracket.



That nickel plating looks shit hot and alloy like
1
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 6:32pm
12/25/2015 6:32pm
The nickel plating holds up well too. Everybody that has seen those mounts thinks they are made out titanium and they are pretty surprised when I tell them they are actually a modified stock part.
bvm111
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bvm111 12/25/2015 6:42pm
12/25/2015 6:42pm
bvm111 wrote:
You know, I really was going to buy a 2016 KX450 this spring, but this thread has me wanting to do this to my KX 250...
You know, I really was going to buy a 2016 KX450 this spring, but this thread has me wanting to do this to my KX 250 instead... dang you Black Diamond!!!! LaughingLaughingLaughing
blackdiamond wrote:
The KX smoker project will be more fun than any four stroke ever could be IMO
I am an old school hold out and have never owned a four stroke in my life!

I took about a 12 year break from riding and found my 06 KX in the crate last year, so it still only has about 25 hours total riding time on it. I really want to go all out on the suspension and chassis next. My thought on trying the 450 was to possibly use the TAC forks on my KX and go ohlins or WP on the 450 since I have not been able to find the ohlins for my KX.

Or I might just leave well enough alone and just ride the thing!
VRR7
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VRR7 12/25/2015 8:12pm
12/25/2015 8:12pm
blackdiamond wrote:
Here is the finished bracket. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/25/116812/s1200_20151225_111434.jpg[/img]
Here is the finished bracket.



Underground wrote:
That nickel plating looks shit hot and alloy like
Good Job - You are right they do look much better quality than the older version
VRR7
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VRR7 12/25/2015 8:16pm
12/25/2015 8:16pm
Scraper: The footpeg is unchanged, but the mounting bracket is designed to keep mud from clogging the pivot.

(5) Footpeg brackets. Over the last few years the Honda footpegs could get clogged with mud and lock into the upright position. While the footpegs are unchanged for 2016, the bracket they mount to has been redesigned with a scraper to help clear mud out of the pivot area. These new brackets will retrofit on 2013 to 2015 CRFs.


http://motocrossactionmag.com/bike-tests/honda-tests/2016-honda-crf450

Pit Row

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VRR7
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VRR7 12/25/2015 8:18pm
12/25/2015 8:18pm


Looks like Trey Carnards
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 9:50pm
12/25/2015 9:50pm
VRR7 wrote:
Scraper: The footpeg is unchanged, but the mounting bracket is designed to keep mud from clogging the pivot. (5) Footpeg brackets. Over the last few years...
Scraper: The footpeg is unchanged, but the mounting bracket is designed to keep mud from clogging the pivot.

(5) Footpeg brackets. Over the last few years the Honda footpegs could get clogged with mud and lock into the upright position. While the footpegs are unchanged for 2016, the bracket they mount to has been redesigned with a scraper to help clear mud out of the pivot area. These new brackets will retrofit on 2013 to 2015 CRFs.


http://motocrossactionmag.com/bike-tests/honda-tests/2016-honda-crf450
I know they will retrofit back to at least 2002, possibly beyond that.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 11:14pm
12/25/2015 11:14pm
Just finished up a few of the last details on the brakes. Decided to use a 260mm Motostuff 2015 Team Honda replica blade kit on the front and a 2015 OEM rotor from a CRF450 on the rear. Both of these discs are lighter than almost anything available in stock form but I couldn't help but do a bit of massaging to both of them to further reduce the weight, especially the rear disc. I am using the Kevlar superlight brake lines from Motostuff as well and OEM Honda pads.







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blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/25/2015 11:38pm
12/25/2015 11:38pm Edited Date/Time 12/25/2015 11:45pm
The front caliper is a slightly modified Ride Engineering billet caliper with lightened pistons and the rear is a 2015 CRF 450 caliper that has been machined to reduce the weight slightly and help with cooling. The rear brake piston has flutes machined into it like some of the braking systems frequently used on race cars and GP bikes. This mod greatly reduces the heat transfer from the brake pad to the piston by allowing it to vent. After the piston modification it was DLC coated for less friction and drag. All of the caliper pins, brake pad pins and bleed nipples are specialty parts from Racetech Titanium. The caliper pins are DLC coated as well for less friction.

The pics below show the calipers in various stages with these mods.















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Underground 12/25/2015 11:46pm
12/25/2015 11:46pm
VRR7 wrote:
[img]http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/11_fctry_hon_crf450r-15.jpg[/img] Looks like Trey Carnards


Looks like Trey Carnards
riding with those would be akin to sticking your arm into the mouth of a croc or gator and pulling it out quickly hoping not to get bit
Reefer Sutherland 12/26/2015 4:41am
12/26/2015 4:41am
blackdiamond wrote:
I was unaware that the maps could actually swap during operation, that is impressive.
Ask Borut. You could also run a hall sensor but that's roadie stuff.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/26/2015 11:56am
12/26/2015 11:56am
I am going to email him this weekend regarding some other questions I had so I will make a point to ask him.
40
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40 12/26/2015 1:03pm
12/26/2015 1:03pm


PR2 in Pennsylvania did some development work on the case reed CR250, having built engines for Team Blackfoot Canada and ridden by Jean Sebastien Roy. The case reed design is capable of making a ton of power.

mx_phreek
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mx_phreek 12/26/2015 1:23pm
12/26/2015 1:23pm
40 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/26/116925/s1200_PR2_CR250.jpg[/img] PR2 in Pennsylvania did some development work on the case reed CR250, having built engines for Team Blackfoot Canada and ridden by Jean Sebastien Roy...


PR2 in Pennsylvania did some development work on the case reed CR250, having built engines for Team Blackfoot Canada and ridden by Jean Sebastien Roy. The case reed design is capable of making a ton of power.

More than most current 450's that.
Reefer Sutherland 12/26/2015 1:51pm
12/26/2015 1:51pm
If you can get enough air into them to utilize the ridiculous NSR-like crankcase volume. I rode a full on Watts 02 Ricky replica with a 59hp dyno sheet. The thing revved to the moon and was 100% devoid of "hit". The Honda cyl is weird too on that one. They didn't stagger the ports. They're all the same height. The potential is there. My favorite two-banger motor ever. They just needed a couple more years on it. The 07-08 version of that bike would have been insanity.
blackdiamond
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blackdiamond 12/26/2015 1:54pm
12/26/2015 1:54pm
If I remember correctly he pulled quite a few holeshots on that CR250
Awesome Johnson 12/26/2015 2:55pm
12/26/2015 2:55pm
Reefer, how was the watts built 02 cr in regards to low-mid-high end power. Was it gobs of power all around or mild to warp speed type thing?

Black, I can't wait to see this finished but at the same time totally digging every post. I got a 2007 cr250 that is due for a tear down refresh and a lot of what I've seen so far will make its way on my bike. Thanks for this killer build thread!

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