Full Tilt CR250 Build - MXA Two Stroke Hall of Fame

davistld01
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Springfield, MO US
12/23/2015 9:58am Edited Date/Time 12/23/2015 9:59am
Jeeeez...wish I had some more disposable income. I'd love to build a badass CR250 like that.

Of course, it would then require someone younger and MUCH more talented than I am/was to ride it!Wink
c_dub
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WI US
12/23/2015 10:13am
The motor is still work in progress. It is being done by Terry Varner and will be a full race spec motor tailored to outdoor MX...
The motor is still work in progress. It is being done by Terry Varner and will be a full race spec motor tailored to outdoor MX. It will have the usual head and cylinder mods along with a modified VForce reed cage and programmable ignition that will allow independent 3D mapping for the ignition, carburetor power-jet and exhaust RC valve. It will use a 39mm taper bored short body Keihin airstryker carb that is the same as the OEM carb found on the late model RM250's. Varner did all of the mods on that as well. The TPS and power-jet will be fully functional unlike the popular Keihin carb swap that most do.

We are still working on the details and tying up a few loose ends but the transmission will be a lightweight 3 speed version that saves about two pounds of rotating weight inside the engine. It would never work offroad or for trail riding but for MX I think it will be awesome. We will see, I haven't tested it yet.
Black,

Did you give any thought to running a Lectron or APT carb? Did you decide against one because of the programmable ignition that you're using? Thanks.
blackdiamond
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Grapevine , TX US
12/23/2015 10:30am
The motor is still work in progress. It is being done by Terry Varner and will be a full race spec motor tailored to outdoor MX...
The motor is still work in progress. It is being done by Terry Varner and will be a full race spec motor tailored to outdoor MX. It will have the usual head and cylinder mods along with a modified VForce reed cage and programmable ignition that will allow independent 3D mapping for the ignition, carburetor power-jet and exhaust RC valve. It will use a 39mm taper bored short body Keihin airstryker carb that is the same as the OEM carb found on the late model RM250's. Varner did all of the mods on that as well. The TPS and power-jet will be fully functional unlike the popular Keihin carb swap that most do.

We are still working on the details and tying up a few loose ends but the transmission will be a lightweight 3 speed version that saves about two pounds of rotating weight inside the engine. It would never work offroad or for trail riding but for MX I think it will be awesome. We will see, I haven't tested it yet.
c_dub wrote:
Black, Did you give any thought to running a Lectron or APT carb? Did you decide against one because of the programmable ignition that you're using...
Black,

Did you give any thought to running a Lectron or APT carb? Did you decide against one because of the programmable ignition that you're using? Thanks.
I have never really been a big fan of either to be honest. I know there are some people who swear by them but I have heard too many stories of people having so much trouble dialing them in they go back to a Keihin. With that said, I have never tried one myself and I really don't know all that much about them.
JerseyFresh
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Denver, CO US
12/23/2015 10:31am
I love this thread. That thing is bad ass, people should take note, this is a bike thread. Not "I spoke to my wallet(wife)".

The Shop

blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 10:36am
Here is a before and after pic of the transmission: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/23/116457/s1200_Stock_Tranny.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/23/116458/s1200_DSC06924.jpg[/img]
Here is a before and after pic of the transmission:






ML512 wrote:
RCR does a fantastic job... Glad to see other people using his fine work. Cool
Yea, he was great to work with on this. I think the guy that referred me to him might have been referred by you? He has a CR250 as well.
blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 11:01am
Looks beautiful, can't wait to see this done, where did you get the tank and dare i ask how much ? Any info on the shock...
Looks beautiful, can't wait to see this done, where did you get the tank and dare i ask how much ?

Any info on the shock swap that you're willing to share, what did you do to get it on there, change the length, linkage etc ?
It basically required a slightly longer shock shaft, a small internal spacer and a modified Showa end cap on the shock body to bring all the dimensions into spec (yes I said Showa end cap on a KYB shock). Graeme Brough was responsible for all of the mods on this and I wouldn't have been able to do that part of this project without him. He is really good at custom stuff like this.

We also added a SDI elite shock clevis with a rebound adjuster because the stock rebound adjuster on these shocks is basically useless. The linkage is stock but was prepped by Justin at Motowhips. They remove all of the casting flashing from the knuckle and link and polish it to a satin finish. It looks really clean and actually cleans up much easier because the surface is much smoother. We did the same process on the rear brake pedal and kickstarter. The titanium linkage hardware is from RaceTech Titanium.

Below is a before and after shot of the linkage.







newmann
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12/23/2015 11:16am
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts.

Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight as possible". I like this but can't help but notice you've added a few items that may increase weight in a few areas. Do you have a target weight? Also, I just wanted to get in on that before everyone starts in with the eat less and shit more comments. Laughing

And that tranny is just pure damn sweetness. I have a vintage project that may be getting 6th gear tossed.

Keep the pics coming, love watching other people spend money on cool stuff that I like!
blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 11:19am
Here is a before and after pic of the transmission: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/23/116457/s1200_Stock_Tranny.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/23/116458/s1200_DSC06924.jpg[/img]
Here is a before and after pic of the transmission:






This is the modified and lightened shift drum. My friend Matt hooked me up by doing the mill work on this part at his job (and ruined 3 cutting tools in the process because this part is so hard)

Varner then added the necessary mods for the 3 speed trans and did the final clean up and prep.



1
blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 12:06pm
newmann wrote:
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts. Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight...
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts.

Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight as possible". I like this but can't help but notice you've added a few items that may increase weight in a few areas. Do you have a target weight? Also, I just wanted to get in on that before everyone starts in with the eat less and shit more comments. Laughing

And that tranny is just pure damn sweetness. I have a vintage project that may be getting 6th gear tossed.

Keep the pics coming, love watching other people spend money on cool stuff that I like!
I don't really have a target weight in mind but I would be surprised if it weighed over 200 pounds dry. What parts are you referring to in regards to adding weight?
kiwifan
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CA US
12/23/2015 12:26pm
Wow very cool project, ML512 would love to ride this bike as I am sure MXA would too lol :-)
blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 12:52pm
kiwifan wrote:
Wow very cool project, ML512 would love to ride this bike as I am sure MXA would too lol :-)
I would be up for that, it would be cool to see some kind of feature on it when its finished. Hopefully that is less than 30 days away if I don't run into any major challenges.
Olson
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12/23/2015 12:54pm
Get off the keyboard and finish the build so you can get us more pictures to drool over!!!! Tongue
Joko
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Cromwell, CT US
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12/23/2015 1:37pm
Any contact info for RCR? Web search doesn't bring them up...
Bruce372
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12/23/2015 1:48pm
The smart carb is an interesting mod, once dialed mine worked incredibly well. The screaming top end was amazing for a 125./144. 6th gear pinned down my friends runway and it ran like a 125 gp road racer.

That ignition website is cool, but I didn't see anything for the rm125.

Also, if doing custom electronics, try cycleterminal.com since they have oem type waterproof fittings, you can make tps tools and other stuff.

Nice project
newmann
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12/23/2015 1:55pm
newmann wrote:
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts. Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight...
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts.

Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight as possible". I like this but can't help but notice you've added a few items that may increase weight in a few areas. Do you have a target weight? Also, I just wanted to get in on that before everyone starts in with the eat less and shit more comments. Laughing

And that tranny is just pure damn sweetness. I have a vintage project that may be getting 6th gear tossed.

Keep the pics coming, love watching other people spend money on cool stuff that I like!
I don't really have a target weight in mind but I would be surprised if it weighed over 200 pounds dry. What parts are you referring...
I don't really have a target weight in mind but I would be surprised if it weighed over 200 pounds dry. What parts are you referring to in regards to adding weight?
Steering damper, X-Trig adjuster, triple clamps??? You didn't have those triples made in mag did you? All good stuff with benefits....love my X-Trig preload adjuster, pure genius.
12/23/2015 2:08pm
Here is a before and after pic of the transmission: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/23/116457/s1200_Stock_Tranny.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/23/116458/s1200_DSC06924.jpg[/img]
Here is a before and after pic of the transmission:






ML512 wrote:
RCR does a fantastic job... Glad to see other people using his fine work. Cool
Yea, he was great to work with on this. I think the guy that referred me to him might have been referred by you? He has...
Yea, he was great to work with on this. I think the guy that referred me to him might have been referred by you? He has a CR250 as well.
That stuff is better looking than my wife's jewelry! I love custom stuff done by true professionals.
I'm a fan of the RC engine too, getting great results from minimal mods on an 02.
I can't remember if they have the gear position sensor also? Hooking up a map using the TPS, gear position and revs and adjusting the RC opening to suit would be a bitch but awesome when achieved.
12/23/2015 2:32pm
This is a really cool build. Always wanted to do something at this level, but just have never had the budget or connections for some of this stuff.

I think you'll be just fine with the 3 speed transmission. I had two '02 CR250's that I used of Offroad racing and never used 1st gear even in tight woods. 5th was just for long WFO runs.

Pretty much the same with my YZ.

I was into the 2002+ CR motor, also. Thought there was a lot of potential there with the electronic PV. If I had been able to find an ignition like that back then, that would've been tits.

Maybe I can build a Servo PV for my YZ?
CR250Rider
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Moses Lake, WA US
12/23/2015 3:04pm
Very excited about your build!

Didn't they change the stock RC powervalve motor with some hi-po RC motor..a 380 mabuchi?

What kind of insane Horsepower numbers do the cart guys get?
nytsmaC
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Frig Off CA
12/23/2015 3:33pm
newmann wrote:
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts. Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight...
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts.

Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight as possible". I like this but can't help but notice you've added a few items that may increase weight in a few areas. Do you have a target weight? Also, I just wanted to get in on that before everyone starts in with the eat less and shit more comments. Laughing

And that tranny is just pure damn sweetness. I have a vintage project that may be getting 6th gear tossed.

Keep the pics coming, love watching other people spend money on cool stuff that I like!
I don't really have a target weight in mind but I would be surprised if it weighed over 200 pounds dry. What parts are you referring...
I don't really have a target weight in mind but I would be surprised if it weighed over 200 pounds dry. What parts are you referring to in regards to adding weight?
newmann wrote:
Steering damper, X-Trig adjuster, triple clamps??? You didn't have those triples made in mag did you? All good stuff with benefits....love my X-Trig preload adjuster, pure...
Steering damper, X-Trig adjuster, triple clamps??? You didn't have those triples made in mag did you? All good stuff with benefits....love my X-Trig preload adjuster, pure genius.
Good call on the adjuster and steering damper, They're not heavy but those little things add up. The stock Honda triple clamps aren't light, those X-trig ones are probably close to a pound lighter if they're as light as the two aftermarket billet sets I've weighed. They look fairly sleak and minimalistic.

Use Bikemaster non-HD tubes, they're very light at close to 1lb each. Some guys have even begun using mountain bike tubes (26" for fat tire bikes), which seem to be working okay and they as a pair weigh close to a pound lighter than the lightest motorcycle tubes.
Motion Pro Liteloc rim locks, Motion Pro rim strips, Pirelli MXMS tires (110/85-19 rear is super light, and lets you go down 1 tooth on the rear sprocket). Stock Honda wheels will be lighter than anything aftermarket, get the hubs lathed and polished or anodized. Talon rear sprocket, Sunline MXMR chain, OEM front sprocket, CRFstuff rotors, and you will have the lightest wheel set possible.

OEM Honda plastic is lighter than anything aftmarket too, with the exception of the Cycra stadium front number plate and vented front fender. If you insist on a graphics kit get it printed on 4mm vinyl.

It will be possible to get that bike under 200lbs but you will have to be very careful of parts selection and not adding anything extra on that isn't absolutely neccessary like disc/caliper guards, twinwall bars, etc. Air forks would make things a lot easier for you, KYB sells the PSF1 works forks which are what most of the factory racers seem to be currently using. Go over the bike with a fine tooth comb and remove anything that doesn't have to be on there. Many little things add up. Use aluminum hardware where possible, it's lighter than titanium.

The new NEXT unbreakable clutch perch assembly and front brake lever are the lightest on the market, too, if you plan to go non-OEM.

I assume that you already know a lot of this stuff but just sharing what I've found with my own lightweight CR250.
Sounds like a fun project, can't wait to see the finished product!
philG
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GB
12/23/2015 3:39pm
I raced a 3 speed Vertemati 495 back in the day , geared right it would go all the way to turn 1 in first , or 2nd depending on how you set it up, and once you got used to knowing what gear you are in all the time so you dont hit neutral at the bottom , it was spot on, however , having that work on a 250 2t is a big ask . You only have so much spread of power ,before it goes flat

The Dixon bikes were rev monsters, and the camchains wouldnt do more than a day, because they had to rev them so hard to get them to work with the 3 gears. Also the high revs killed the cases, which is why they went billet.. Osborne used to crack them after 3 race weekends apparently.

Awesome work though , if i had the time i would send our gearboxes to REM finish over here , just because it looks so damn fine.. it makes a huge difference , i know we ran a set of non REMed gears on the rig just to test some stuff while we were waiting for others to come back, it was measurably better .
blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 3:45pm
CR250Rider wrote:
Very excited about your build! Didn't they change the stock RC powervalve motor with some hi-po RC motor..a 380 mabuchi? What kind of insane Horsepower numbers...
Very excited about your build!

Didn't they change the stock RC powervalve motor with some hi-po RC motor..a 380 mabuchi?

What kind of insane Horsepower numbers do the cart guys get?
If I remember correctly it was in the high 60's? I remember thinking it was virtually impossible when I saw the dyno chart. I will try to find it again.
blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 3:48pm
newmann wrote:
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts. Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight...
Justin at Motowhips you say? Must look that one up as I like what he did with those linkage parts.

Now you mentioned "2. As lightweight as possible". I like this but can't help but notice you've added a few items that may increase weight in a few areas. Do you have a target weight? Also, I just wanted to get in on that before everyone starts in with the eat less and shit more comments. Laughing

And that tranny is just pure damn sweetness. I have a vintage project that may be getting 6th gear tossed.

Keep the pics coming, love watching other people spend money on cool stuff that I like!
I don't really have a target weight in mind but I would be surprised if it weighed over 200 pounds dry. What parts are you referring...
I don't really have a target weight in mind but I would be surprised if it weighed over 200 pounds dry. What parts are you referring to in regards to adding weight?
newmann wrote:
Steering damper, X-Trig adjuster, triple clamps??? You didn't have those triples made in mag did you? All good stuff with benefits....love my X-Trig preload adjuster, pure...
Steering damper, X-Trig adjuster, triple clamps??? You didn't have those triples made in mag did you? All good stuff with benefits....love my X-Trig preload adjuster, pure genius.
Triple clamps are Neken, just anodized a different color (not the SFS clamps)

They are solid mount.
JBernard_401
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12/23/2015 4:02pm
where did you get the Xtrig Preload adjuster? Is that considered an AKit dimension shock body? because I could have sworn they said they don't make it for AKit stuff, which is odd because you'd think they would be begging pros to run it and get exposure.
ML512
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12/23/2015 4:14pm
where did you get the Xtrig Preload adjuster? Is that considered an AKit dimension shock body? because I could have sworn they said they don't make...
where did you get the Xtrig Preload adjuster? Is that considered an AKit dimension shock body? because I could have sworn they said they don't make it for AKit stuff, which is odd because you'd think they would be begging pros to run it and get exposure.
KYB kit shocks are the same diameter (50mm damping area) as production shocks, as are Showa A-kit shocks.

The problem with using an X-Trig pre-load adjuster on some A-kit shocks, is that the reservoir offset can be slightly different than a production shock. Or in the case of a KXF A-kit shock, the diameter of the reservoir is a bit larger.
ML512
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12/23/2015 4:17pm
kiwifan wrote:
Wow very cool project, ML512 would love to ride this bike as I am sure MXA would too lol :-)
I would be up for that, it would be cool to see some kind of feature on it when its finished. Hopefully that is less than...
I would be up for that, it would be cool to see some kind of feature on it when its finished. Hopefully that is less than 30 days away if I don't run into any major challenges.
Hit me up if you want to do something! I can at least take pictures of that beautiful beast....

Mlindsay@vitalmx.com
blackdiamond
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12/23/2015 4:25pm
ML512 wrote:
RCR does a fantastic job... Glad to see other people using his fine work. Cool
Yea, he was great to work with on this. I think the guy that referred me to him might have been referred by you? He has...
Yea, he was great to work with on this. I think the guy that referred me to him might have been referred by you? He has a CR250 as well.
That stuff is better looking than my wife's jewelry! I love custom stuff done by true professionals. I'm a fan of the RC engine too, getting...
That stuff is better looking than my wife's jewelry! I love custom stuff done by true professionals.
I'm a fan of the RC engine too, getting great results from minimal mods on an 02.
I can't remember if they have the gear position sensor also? Hooking up a map using the TPS, gear position and revs and adjusting the RC opening to suit would be a bitch but awesome when achieved.
The 2004 and up had a TPS sensor but not a gear position sensor.
blackdiamond
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Grapevine , TX US
12/23/2015 4:31pm
where did you get the Xtrig Preload adjuster? Is that considered an AKit dimension shock body? because I could have sworn they said they don't make...
where did you get the Xtrig Preload adjuster? Is that considered an AKit dimension shock body? because I could have sworn they said they don't make it for AKit stuff, which is odd because you'd think they would be begging pros to run it and get exposure.
ML512 wrote:
KYB kit shocks are the same diameter (50mm damping area) as production shocks, as are Showa A-kit shocks. The problem with using an X-Trig pre-load adjuster...
KYB kit shocks are the same diameter (50mm damping area) as production shocks, as are Showa A-kit shocks.

The problem with using an X-Trig pre-load adjuster on some A-kit shocks, is that the reservoir offset can be slightly different than a production shock. Or in the case of a KXF A-kit shock, the diameter of the reservoir is a bit larger.
I may be changing the adjuster out to standard preload rings. The airbox clearance under full compression is too close for comfort because of the odd angle the adjuster sits at. Looks like the X-Trig may be going on eBay.
JBernard_401
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12/23/2015 4:34pm
ML512 wrote:
KYB kit shocks are the same diameter (50mm damping area) as production shocks, as are Showa A-kit shocks. The problem with using an X-Trig pre-load adjuster...
KYB kit shocks are the same diameter (50mm damping area) as production shocks, as are Showa A-kit shocks.

The problem with using an X-Trig pre-load adjuster on some A-kit shocks, is that the reservoir offset can be slightly different than a production shock. Or in the case of a KXF A-kit shock, the diameter of the reservoir is a bit larger.
ah.. damn. thats what i have, an kxf akit shock.
JBernard_401
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12/23/2015 4:35pm
I may be changing the adjuster out to standard preload rings. The airbox clearance under full compression is too close for comfort because of the odd...
I may be changing the adjuster out to standard preload rings. The airbox clearance under full compression is too close for comfort because of the odd angle the adjuster sits at. Looks like the X-Trig may be going on eBay.
I've got the showa 'speed ring' style preload rings on my shock and they look so much nicer than the '2 nut' version out of stamped steel. i dont know if they make one for the kyb shock body, but its worth checking into.

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