Feedback on Glen Helen jumps

It seems that GH has taken the "circus before safety" approach in recent years. Southwick is the polar opposite and lacks nothing in excitement.

from matthes racerx column:

Here’s a sample of rider quotes from my interviews after the day:

“I would just say that they needed to get rid of that big triple jump in the back. You’re going so fast, we were all getting head shake going down the straightaway and then up the face.”- Jeremy Martin

“I couldn’t believe how rough it was. It was mentally tiring. You just come around and you’re like, another lap? Come on, give me the two lap card. It was tough. It was really, really taxing out there. I’m happy to get out of it healthy.”- Cole Seely

“The track scared me all day, honestly. But I’m probably not the one to ask about that. I think it’s good because it’s progressive. I think the fans like it. It was a great crowd today. I wish they would rip it a little deeper to slow down the speeds, but if they’re going to build those massive jumps like the triple upstep, you've got to make a wider landing. A little bit of angle on the takeoff makes a big difference when you’re going 100+ feet. So I think they need to be a little more safety-minded if they’re going to build stuff that big. But it’s cool to watch. Scary for me.”- Andrew Short

“Glen Helen’s always tough. With the dirt and the soil here, big jumps aren’t really a good combo for I would say a national, just because it gets so rutted out and edgy that it’s kind of sketchy. Just seeing that video of that guy crashing just makes me melt, dude. That thing’s unnecessary to me. But hopefully the next couple races they mellow some of the jumps out and don’t get too crazy.”- Broc Tickle

“What if a chain breaks or whatever? Anything can happen. It can be mechanical error or rider error, who knows? But it is what it is. Just to get out of here safe. In practice I wanted to ghost ride my bike off one of the catapult jumps they built out there. It was like a quarter of the track was an arenacross track.”- Phil Nicoletti

“I’m just being honest here. You could probably pay me to come here and practice and I won’t go. And usually actually for the races they rip it super deep, not today. It was super hard and sketchy and rough and really weird. Usually at least for the races that’s always my go-to where I’m like, “Okay, it’ll be all right because they rip it really deep.” And they didn’t really rip it too deep.”- Ken Roczen

“Some goofy sections” said Ryan Dungey at the press conference followed up with “I think we can chill out on some of the jumps.”

http://racerxonline.com/2016/06/01/observations-glen-helen

Right on, Vital will fax this info directly to the Glen Helen race prep department

A great example of fun/safe big jumps vs unnecessary sketchy ones. Every rider I asked about the Fly150 at Hangtown liked the obstacle and the other jumps around the track. Pretty much every rider I talked to after Glen Helen said the triple step up and that front Rythym section were sketchier than almost anything during the Supercross season.

Here we go...

If they took them out or made them easy, there would be 10 threads about how Jody tried to make it like REM. You can't make everyone happy.

I don't really post on here but as a guy who raced GH the jumps were definitely overboard. Although I do think the track was significantly better than last year to race on because they took out all the one lined cliff jumps up hills. With that being said a couple of the jumps weren't very safe at all, mainly the big triple up the hill. There isn't a lot of room for error on it when you are going that fast up to it. The difference between hitting it perfect and over jumping are very minuet. Fortunately I rode press and and had the luxury of taking my time hitting all the jumps instead of having to bust them out in the first two laps of practice. My initial thought was to hit it as fast as the guy did who collapsed his wheel but someone was cool enough to let me follow them. Once you do the jump it is probably the easiest on the track; but it isn't raceable. Nor is it safe having to hit it next to someone. The track is hard enough to ride a 35 min on without that jump, no need to have it. Other jumps that were a little excessive were the triple down and the finish line.

That big step up with the short landing was completely unnecessary. I don't know why they put a table jump just after the biggest jump in motocross. They needed to give the guys that over jumped it some run out space.

Seems foolish and dangerous to me, but maybe someone should ask Coombs, Im sure he had to sign off on that jump at some point...

Alright Rock, I concede. When you have THAT many riders complaining about the jump, it needs to go.

I didn't like the rhythm section in the middle of the track. That was just too SXish to me.

Pretty much all the riders said the track wasn't ripped deep enough. My assumptions are correct, mx has become pussified.

The triple back down the hill after the uphill triple looked the sketchiest to me. I'm surprised there wasn't more carnage there.

Trey Canard explains the difference between a safe big jump (like the Fly 150 or Larocco's leap) vs. what Glen Helen had:

How does something like that triple you were talking about differ from say, LaRocco’s Leap, or that big Fly 150 at Hangtown last week?

Here’s the difference. With those jumps, all the way up to the run you’re on the gas. You start at the bottom and you’re building speed. With this triple, you start from one end [of the track] and you go to the other, and you’re doing 65 or 70 mph. Your brain can’t think that fast if you have to pull out if something needs to happen. With LaRocco’s Leap, you have a lot of time if you need to abort. There’s a big downside and it’s fairly safe, where this, it’s not good.

Yeah I'm with you guys on this one. I always felt we should leave it up to riders. They're the ones who have to race it and clearly many weren't happy with this race. I don't remember hearing many have any problems with the Fly 150 though. (because the safer setup I'm assuming)

I'm pretty sure that not one of them had to jump it. They all choose to do so....

How many riders got hurt on that jump? The (1) guy who over jumped it?

As a long time GH spectator and rider I was a little shocked when I saw the new rhythm section. Normally one thinks of Jody as Old School Moto. And it gave the riders fits all day long, biting several of them. The triple was not a surprise because they have done various incarnations of it for several years both in the Nats and the GP there. It may have gotten a little bigger but I think it is not too far from previous versions.

It was surreal though, standing under it and watching rider after rider soaring thru the air. I mentioned to a bud "What will we be seeing in another 10 years? 200 or 300 footers?" lol

For all the fuss I think there were very few incidents all day. I couldn't help thinking though that you def don't want someone next to you crowding you on the takeoff. I think maybe a double option that would not severely penalize you time wise could have been added for anyone getting sketchy on the approach. Yeah, you could double it the way it was but it cost you a lot of time.

I could sure do without them. If I want to watch a air show I will tune into Pastranas Nitro circus. The best racing is on the ground. Floating through the air for 10 seconds is boredom....even the riders are bored and use that time to get rid of tear offs, adjust the clutch, scratch their nuts, and check emails. It is also a unnecessary risk that does not belong on a outdoor MX track

I typically like one big jump on a pro national track and I always like to see these amazing riders challenged but the riders made good points against it. Especially when Canard took the time in the press conference (I believe) to say this...

"I don't know what these guys were thinking honestly. I know entertainment value is big but you're dealing with people's lives here and it's not cool. There's that big triple in the back and it claimed a couple people. It's not that we can't do it, we can do it easily actually, but doing it in a group for thirty minutes plus two, witch chuckholes on the track, the margin for error is too small. I'm all for big jumps, but you're doing almost 70 mph and there's no escape. It's not good. I don't want complain but I feel compelled to speak. We can't have this in our sport."

The Fly 150 at Hangtown, Larrocco's leap and the big uphill triple in Indiana I believe are done the right way. This one clearly wasn't.

I was surprised because Jody races REM every weekend and I love that track. It's an old school track with ruts, turns and elevation changes and no crazy jumps. He even criticizes supercross as becoming a circus with the track design being all jumps. He's the last person I would think that would design a track with excite bike jumps like last weekend. I wonder what he has to say about all this?

"Bigger is Better"

If the top riders were saying they needed to tone it down then I think they needed to tone it down even though they make it look easy. It looked pretty cool to watch but I am not the one who has to to it to be competitive.

But if you complain about jumps at a local tracks that are sketchy, you are a pussy, too old, etc..... I know local tracks don't have jumps like the one at GH, but the concept is the same. What then happens is that people speak with their wallets and you see them going somewhere else and the track closes because riders "are pussies today." I like rough and I can live with ruts, but don't give me square edge holes on double jump faces, rhythm jumps that are peaked like an A-frame roof, and 4th gear wide open uphill blind doubles. I'll just go elsewhere.

But the riders who have actually jumped these jumps during their races say differently.

That's the way I feel about the track I ride for fun. If I don't feel it I don't jump it. No worries. I don't begrudge it being there.

But in this case, all the top guys had to jump it if they wanted to remain top guys. In the fly150 it was possible to scrub the double for similar times. Also, the guys that chose not to jump it were at risk anyway from guys committed to flying 180' and dropping out of the air on top of them.

The problem is two fold, the most obvious is the mound of dirt too close to the landing. You can see what happens to front wheels when you over jump.

The second is the most important. If you start fast, and have a random amount of time before the jump it just gets too sketchy in the race. Doing the leap or the fly 150 is much safer because it is out of a corner. Rail the outside in 3rd, click 4th and you've got it. Gas is always on. Mess up the corner, traction, doesn't matter you can back out and double. Having a long straight makes it way too easy to go too slow or fast. At 70 mph it's hard to tell the difference between 65 (case) and 75 (blown wheel).

From a pure racing perspective it was a boring jump. It was not challenging at all. Every rider did it every lap. Not a single pass was made over that jump. Twist throttle, shift gears, jump far. yawn.

Build up the landing more, add some kind of S turn section down the straight. Make it a challenge, but make it safer. When every rider is doing the exact same combination and nary a single pass is made over it then you know it's really a worthless obstacle.

What everyone is calling the SX section was probably one of the best sections on the track. It was rutted. Guys were making mistakes. Passes were happening there like crazy. Oh, and it was a pretty safe section.

So you can have obstacles that are safe, an extreme challenge to the riders, and provides some great racing and different combinations.

The big jump at GH did not do a single one of those things. It just was a dangerous and absolutely boring jump. You can go sit for a few hours and watch people jump at Nitro Circus or any FMX event. Racing is about challenging the riders against each other and riders being challenged by the track. GH is an awesome track that does that in most every place. Just not that boring gigantic jump everyone was doing.