Dubach dispels the wide open myth

bents
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1/3/2011 8:05am
Without having heard the podcast, whenever I have found the stop on any one of my 450's over the years, it was plain too fast, too brutal. The 1st yr of the YZ450 (4 speed-2003 I think) might have been the hardest hitting motor I ever had. I couldn't hang on to that fucker when I had the courage to really twist it. And I was pretty fit then and doing a lot of riding.

I'm back down to a 250F and loving it and feeling way safer now. Am looking for a 250 smoker as well. I'll leave the 450's to the professionals....and I highly doubt that most "ham and egg" moto-x week end warriors truly wick a 450 to even a small % of its full potential. It is exhilarating, but can also lead to disaster pretty quickly.
TerryB
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1/3/2011 8:13am
I'm guessing, firstly, that Doug is using the word "never" in an exaggerated way for emphasis, meaning: a very small percentage.

And secondly, the definition of wide open, as others have said, you may be twisted to the stop for brief periods of time, but the engine is under a load and rarely reaches peak rpm. If it does, the motor is no longer "pulling". Most decent riders, (and anybody with the talent of a pro rider) is going to grab another gear before this happens.


Rupert X
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1/3/2011 8:16am


Wondering out loud with my hands in the air (like I just don't care) - if Dr. Doug

has ever seen me wring out my XR-80 on the pee-wee track at Briarcliff !

Sayin'.....
TerryB
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1/3/2011 8:17am
bents wrote:
Without having heard the podcast, whenever I have found the stop on any one of my 450's over the years, it was plain too fast, too...
Without having heard the podcast, whenever I have found the stop on any one of my 450's over the years, it was plain too fast, too brutal. The 1st yr of the YZ450 (4 speed-2003 I think) might have been the hardest hitting motor I ever had. I couldn't hang on to that fucker when I had the courage to really twist it. And I was pretty fit then and doing a lot of riding.

I'm back down to a 250F and loving it and feeling way safer now. Am looking for a 250 smoker as well. I'll leave the 450's to the professionals....and I highly doubt that most "ham and egg" moto-x week end warriors truly wick a 450 to even a small % of its full potential. It is exhilarating, but can also lead to disaster pretty quickly.
I agree. A stock 125 or 250f is more bike than 90% of the dirt biking public will ever need, horsepower wise. Their ego will tell them differently though.

The Shop

Boarddesign
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1/3/2011 8:22am
This is a funny topic. It's just like surfing, guy's are all "did you see that wave? I was ripping" and you are thinking I did see you kook it up. What one perceives they are doing is usually far from what they are doing.

Many here have made good sense and I agree, you can bang wide open throttle but that doesn't mean you revved it to the limiter. The relevance seems futile.
FastEddy
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1/3/2011 8:26am
bents wrote:
Without having heard the podcast, whenever I have found the stop on any one of my 450's over the years, it was plain too fast, too...
Without having heard the podcast, whenever I have found the stop on any one of my 450's over the years, it was plain too fast, too brutal. The 1st yr of the YZ450 (4 speed-2003 I think) might have been the hardest hitting motor I ever had. I couldn't hang on to that fucker when I had the courage to really twist it. And I was pretty fit then and doing a lot of riding.

I'm back down to a 250F and loving it and feeling way safer now. Am looking for a 250 smoker as well. I'll leave the 450's to the professionals....and I highly doubt that most "ham and egg" moto-x week end warriors truly wick a 450 to even a small % of its full potential. It is exhilarating, but can also lead to disaster pretty quickly.
TerryB wrote:
I agree. A stock 125 or 250f is more bike than 90% of the dirt biking public will ever need, horsepower wise. Their ego will tell...
I agree. A stock 125 or 250f is more bike than 90% of the dirt biking public will ever need, horsepower wise. Their ego will tell them differently though.
Yep, as far racing on a track goes. Smile
However,when it comes to play riding or sand dunes ,trails with big hill climbs etc..
A 125 or 250F wont cut it at times.
RaceFace
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1/3/2011 8:36am
It appears people are confusing what is meant by wide open. I don't think we're talking about the throttle to the stops. We're talking about the engine at MAX RPM.

Any bike that is held wide open LOSES power, since the power tails off at the highest RPMs. Most people, especially fast guys, are grabbing another gear and not just holding it wide open. If you are banging off the rev-limiter on a straight or uphill, you aren't riding effectively. A guy like Barcia either is in the air or has the clutch in when he is hitting the limiter, and it is more of a habit for him than an effective riding technique. A lot of goons ride around wide open, but in the wrong gear and going nowhere fast.

For those that are saying they ride wide open all the time, you're saying you go fast and tear it up....and if you are doing that you are very likely not wide open much at all.
RACEGUY
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1/3/2011 8:39am
Throttle openings are measured by the TPS as a value (resistance just like the fuel gauge in your car/truck) usually as a value from 0 to 100. Dubach is talking about the amount of time per lap a rider actually hits that "100" value.

F1 teams, the MotoGP guys, and even the NASCAR chiefs have been saying the same thing for years now. 100% throttle opening is a rare occurance.
Grieby54
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1/3/2011 9:08am
I think I'm seeing both sides, so let me try and link the two here.

Those of you saying you're finding the throttle stop quite frequently - yes, you probably are. However, how long do you hold it there and how many times? Say you hit it about 8 times a lap on your average outdoors track (which would be doing pretty good). Of those 8 times that you're hitting the stop, you're there for about 3 seconds on that big uphill or nice long straight. You're there for 1 second on a few small straights, and less than a second four or five times times elsewhere. Does that make sense?

So yes, you're hitting the stop "frequently," however you're only spending about 8 seconds there (which, again, is probably about a local B to A class level on the average track). Now you're looking at 2+ minute lap times. What percentage of the time are you at the stop?

Now the pros probably spend about double that on a national track, but you get what I'm saying.
mx295
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1/3/2011 9:21am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2011 9:22am
Back in 96 or 97 someone hooked a computer up to Pichons 125.. It showed how many times he shifted, How much throttle he used and if i remember right he was WFO like 35% of the time. And shifted like 40 times a lap.. It was used during a sx race..Anyone else remember seeing this?
CR500Rider
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1/3/2011 9:40am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2011 9:41am
CR500Rider wrote:
One of the reasons a 500cc 2 stroke wasn't (and isn't) necessarily the fastest bike on the track. There are few tracks where you can utilize...
One of the reasons a 500cc 2 stroke wasn't (and isn't) necessarily the fastest bike on the track. There are few tracks where you can utilize that amount of power.
Roscoe33 wrote:
no....not lack of power but traction, power is useless without TRACTION !
If you ride a 500 like a 125 then yeah, that's a problem. Otherwise, it's as tractable as anything on the track.
GuyB
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1/3/2011 9:50am
I've talked about this with Doug as well, and he's talking about throttle position. The percentage of wide open on a track is very low.

No, there's no such thing as a throttle stop sensor, but there is a throttle position sensor, and I think if you've got the link to your EFI setup so that you can look on a laptop, you'll find what Doug's talking about to be true.
72kiteboarder
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1/3/2011 9:56am
Funny thing is that all these guys balking at what he says is exactly the point he is making. You may think you are "wide open" but you rarely ever are wide open. That is not to say that your not hauling ass though.
1/3/2011 10:00am
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago:

"The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external solenoid affixed to the cylinder’s electronic powervalve cover. Apparently, the device was part of an elaborate data acquisition system, which monitors throttle position throughout the moto. Ever listen to one of your buddies talk about how he was “wide open” in a certain section? Well, systems like this usually show that riders are rarely wide open, if ever. But what about RC? According to Ernesto Fonseca’s mechanic Kenny Germain, the race team was shocked to find at one of their outdoor tests, RC was wide open an unbelievable 98% of the time! "

10-13-2003

http://motocross.transworld.net/1000015091/features/monday-kickstart-us…
Sparkalounger
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1/3/2011 10:22am
depends a lot on the bike and rider... 450 Vet C vs. a 125 A ( on a 125 , not a 250F)...
Faceaz
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1/3/2011 10:29am
so when barcia is bouncing his bike off the rev limiter all over the place, that isnt wide open? why? because he isnt in 5th gear...
so when barcia is bouncing his bike off the rev limiter all over the place, that isnt wide open? why? because he isnt in 5th gear doing it? the bike is still at peak rpm regardless of speed.
No. Your bike can easily hit the max rpm without being full throttle, all depends on the load. I'm guessing with no load, you can hit max rpm @ 1/2 throttle & up.
TeamGreen
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1/3/2011 10:36am
GuyB wrote:
I've talked about this with Doug as well, and he's talking about throttle position. The percentage of wide open on a track is very low. No...
I've talked about this with Doug as well, and he's talking about throttle position. The percentage of wide open on a track is very low.

No, there's no such thing as a throttle stop sensor, but there is a throttle position sensor, and I think if you've got the link to your EFI setup so that you can look on a laptop, you'll find what Doug's talking about to be true.
Bingo.

The point to take from this:

If everyone's designing Pipes, etc...to a Dyno-chart for "Peak Performance" gains, well, that DOES NOT mean ANYTHING in the real World...for most riders...AT THE TRACK.

Usable Power, Acceleration, Throttle Response and Torque are what you hear Doug talking about.

He's Brutally Honest.

No wonder he's been a Test-Rider - R&D Contributor at Yamaha for sooooooooo long.
Faceaz
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1/3/2011 10:44am
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago: "The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external...
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago:

"The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external solenoid affixed to the cylinder’s electronic powervalve cover. Apparently, the device was part of an elaborate data acquisition system, which monitors throttle position throughout the moto. Ever listen to one of your buddies talk about how he was “wide open” in a certain section? Well, systems like this usually show that riders are rarely wide open, if ever. But what about RC? According to Ernesto Fonseca’s mechanic Kenny Germain, the race team was shocked to find at one of their outdoor tests, RC was wide open an unbelievable 98% of the time! "

10-13-2003

http://motocross.transworld.net/1000015091/features/monday-kickstart-us…
I don't know the source of that quote, but highly doubt that's accurate. That would mean RC was never liftting & just pulling in the clutch through turns. He would also need to be holding it wide open in the air on virtually all jumps - there's just no way. If it was attached to the powervalve cover & monitoring how often the powervalve was wide open, that would be more believable.

With the 125's, I could imagine a TPS being 100% frequently, maybe 50% of the time. A 250 much less & almost nill on the current 450's.
zookrider62!
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1/3/2011 10:48am
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago: "The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external...
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago:

"The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external solenoid affixed to the cylinder’s electronic powervalve cover. Apparently, the device was part of an elaborate data acquisition system, which monitors throttle position throughout the moto. Ever listen to one of your buddies talk about how he was “wide open” in a certain section? Well, systems like this usually show that riders are rarely wide open, if ever. But what about RC? According to Ernesto Fonseca’s mechanic Kenny Germain, the race team was shocked to find at one of their outdoor tests, RC was wide open an unbelievable 98% of the time! "

10-13-2003

http://motocross.transworld.net/1000015091/features/monday-kickstart-us…
Faceaz wrote:
I don't know the source of that quote, but highly doubt that's accurate. That would mean RC was never liftting & just pulling in the clutch...
I don't know the source of that quote, but highly doubt that's accurate. That would mean RC was never liftting & just pulling in the clutch through turns. He would also need to be holding it wide open in the air on virtually all jumps - there's just no way. If it was attached to the powervalve cover & monitoring how often the powervalve was wide open, that would be more believable.

With the 125's, I could imagine a TPS being 100% frequently, maybe 50% of the time. A 250 much less & almost nill on the current 450's.
the only way to make that quote accurate would be if they excluded time in the air
fcr
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1/3/2011 10:53am
GuyB wrote:
I've talked about this with Doug as well, and he's talking about throttle position. The percentage of wide open on a track is very low. No...
I've talked about this with Doug as well, and he's talking about throttle position. The percentage of wide open on a track is very low.

No, there's no such thing as a throttle stop sensor, but there is a throttle position sensor, and I think if you've got the link to your EFI setup so that you can look on a laptop, you'll find what Doug's talking about to be true.
TeamGreen wrote:
Bingo. The point to take from this: If everyone's designing Pipes, etc...to a Dyno-chart for "Peak Performance" gains, well, that DOES NOT mean ANYTHING in the...
Bingo.

The point to take from this:

If everyone's designing Pipes, etc...to a Dyno-chart for "Peak Performance" gains, well, that DOES NOT mean ANYTHING in the real World...for most riders...AT THE TRACK.

Usable Power, Acceleration, Throttle Response and Torque are what you hear Doug talking about.

He's Brutally Honest.

No wonder he's been a Test-Rider - R&D Contributor at Yamaha for sooooooooo long.
According to the guys a TT, he doesn't know a thing, his pipes are no better than an anchor. To borrow from Rupert, my hands are in the air when I hear those type of comments. (sarcasm button has been clicked for those so challenged)
TeamGreen
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1/3/2011 10:57am
GuyB wrote:
I've talked about this with Doug as well, and he's talking about throttle position. The percentage of wide open on a track is very low. No...
I've talked about this with Doug as well, and he's talking about throttle position. The percentage of wide open on a track is very low.

No, there's no such thing as a throttle stop sensor, but there is a throttle position sensor, and I think if you've got the link to your EFI setup so that you can look on a laptop, you'll find what Doug's talking about to be true.
TeamGreen wrote:
Bingo. The point to take from this: If everyone's designing Pipes, etc...to a Dyno-chart for "Peak Performance" gains, well, that DOES NOT mean ANYTHING in the...
Bingo.

The point to take from this:

If everyone's designing Pipes, etc...to a Dyno-chart for "Peak Performance" gains, well, that DOES NOT mean ANYTHING in the real World...for most riders...AT THE TRACK.

Usable Power, Acceleration, Throttle Response and Torque are what you hear Doug talking about.

He's Brutally Honest.

No wonder he's been a Test-Rider - R&D Contributor at Yamaha for sooooooooo long.
fcr wrote:
According to the guys a TT, he doesn't know a thing, his pipes are no better than an anchor. To borrow from Rupert, my hands are...
According to the guys a TT, he doesn't know a thing, his pipes are no better than an anchor. To borrow from Rupert, my hands are in the air when I hear those type of comments. (sarcasm button has been clicked for those so challenged)
Typical TT question/thread:

"What Graphics for my 2011 CRF450? I'm going Pro!"
motosmith
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1/3/2011 10:59am
Rupert X wrote:
Wondering out loud with my hands in the air (like I just don't care) - if Dr. Doug has ever seen me wring out my XR-80...


Wondering out loud with my hands in the air (like I just don't care) - if Dr. Doug

has ever seen me wring out my XR-80 on the pee-wee track at Briarcliff !

Sayin'.....

Laughed out load so hard spit came out.
fcr
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1/3/2011 11:00am
TeamGreen wrote:
Bingo. The point to take from this: If everyone's designing Pipes, etc...to a Dyno-chart for "Peak Performance" gains, well, that DOES NOT mean ANYTHING in the...
Bingo.

The point to take from this:

If everyone's designing Pipes, etc...to a Dyno-chart for "Peak Performance" gains, well, that DOES NOT mean ANYTHING in the real World...for most riders...AT THE TRACK.

Usable Power, Acceleration, Throttle Response and Torque are what you hear Doug talking about.

He's Brutally Honest.

No wonder he's been a Test-Rider - R&D Contributor at Yamaha for sooooooooo long.
fcr wrote:
According to the guys a TT, he doesn't know a thing, his pipes are no better than an anchor. To borrow from Rupert, my hands are...
According to the guys a TT, he doesn't know a thing, his pipes are no better than an anchor. To borrow from Rupert, my hands are in the air when I hear those type of comments. (sarcasm button has been clicked for those so challenged)
TeamGreen wrote:
Typical TT question/thread:

"What Graphics for my 2011 CRF450? I'm going Pro!"
FMX or SX ?
TeamGreen
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1/3/2011 11:05am
fcr wrote:
According to the guys a TT, he doesn't know a thing, his pipes are no better than an anchor. To borrow from Rupert, my hands are...
According to the guys a TT, he doesn't know a thing, his pipes are no better than an anchor. To borrow from Rupert, my hands are in the air when I hear those type of comments. (sarcasm button has been clicked for those so challenged)
TeamGreen wrote:
Typical TT question/thread:

"What Graphics for my 2011 CRF450? I'm going Pro!"
fcr wrote:
FMX or SX ?
YO! At my local track!

Full moto-pro-sick-ass-SX!

We've even got a DOUBLE JUMP, YO!

Sick! I'm gonna run the Brand-X energy-drink FMX Disco-Ball look, too!

I've got the Loudest-assed-Sick-Pipe, TOO!
CamP
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1/3/2011 11:10am
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago: "The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external...
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago:

"The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external solenoid affixed to the cylinder’s electronic powervalve cover. Apparently, the device was part of an elaborate data acquisition system, which monitors throttle position throughout the moto. Ever listen to one of your buddies talk about how he was “wide open” in a certain section? Well, systems like this usually show that riders are rarely wide open, if ever. But what about RC? According to Ernesto Fonseca’s mechanic Kenny Germain, the race team was shocked to find at one of their outdoor tests, RC was wide open an unbelievable 98% of the time! "

10-13-2003

http://motocross.transworld.net/1000015091/features/monday-kickstart-us…
Faceaz wrote:
I don't know the source of that quote, but highly doubt that's accurate. That would mean RC was never liftting & just pulling in the clutch...
I don't know the source of that quote, but highly doubt that's accurate. That would mean RC was never liftting & just pulling in the clutch through turns. He would also need to be holding it wide open in the air on virtually all jumps - there's just no way. If it was attached to the powervalve cover & monitoring how often the powervalve was wide open, that would be more believable.

With the 125's, I could imagine a TPS being 100% frequently, maybe 50% of the time. A 250 much less & almost nill on the current 450's.
I ride/race both a CRF450 and a CR250. Even on our high speed tracks, I rarely have the 450 pinned wide open, but the CR250 stays pinned WFO much of the time and the power is regulated with the clutch.
nytsmaC
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1/3/2011 3:01pm
Dubach is full of shit, I'm WFO everywhere. He's not even a real doctor!
TeamGreen
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1/3/2011 3:03pm
nytsmaC wrote:
Dubach is full of shit, I'm WFO everywhere. He's not even a real doctor!
But, he DID stay at a Holiday Inn, last-nite!
bents
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1/3/2011 3:32pm
nytsmaC wrote:
Dubach is full of shit, I'm WFO everywhere. He's not even a real doctor!
Fuckin funny guy-must be a Canadian! We're WAY funnier than you Americans! We might be way fuckin slower in MX, but at least we can laugh and make better jokes about it!
Torco1
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1/3/2011 3:47pm
Well, the end of my throttle tube is broke so my grip gets stuck on my bar causing my throttle to stick "wide open" all the time......sometimes I even have to reach down and pull my spark plug wire off on a straight-away just to stop, so I would say I'm wide open about 47% of the time.
FreshTopEnd
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1/3/2011 4:05pm
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago: "The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external...
I had to Google to find the quote, but I remembered this from a long time ago:

"The Honda CR250R of Ricky Carmichael had an external solenoid affixed to the cylinder’s electronic powervalve cover. Apparently, the device was part of an elaborate data acquisition system, which monitors throttle position throughout the moto. Ever listen to one of your buddies talk about how he was “wide open” in a certain section? Well, systems like this usually show that riders are rarely wide open, if ever. But what about RC? According to Ernesto Fonseca’s mechanic Kenny Germain, the race team was shocked to find at one of their outdoor tests, RC was wide open an unbelievable 98% of the time! "

10-13-2003

http://motocross.transworld.net/1000015091/features/monday-kickstart-us…
Faceaz wrote:
I don't know the source of that quote, but highly doubt that's accurate. That would mean RC was never liftting & just pulling in the clutch...
I don't know the source of that quote, but highly doubt that's accurate. That would mean RC was never liftting & just pulling in the clutch through turns. He would also need to be holding it wide open in the air on virtually all jumps - there's just no way. If it was attached to the powervalve cover & monitoring how often the powervalve was wide open, that would be more believable.

With the 125's, I could imagine a TPS being 100% frequently, maybe 50% of the time. A 250 much less & almost nill on the current 450's.
My recollection of it was that, from the discussion on the boards at the time (I think TFS spoke to the Honda guys) was that when RC was on the throttle, 98% of the time he had it wide open. It did not account for when it was rolled off. So, he was either off the throttle completely, or 98% of the time to the stops. He wasn't fully twisted 98% of the time the bikes was rolling.

That was the story, whether you buy it or not.

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