Dubach dispels the wide open myth

1/2/2011 9:11pm Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 4:47pm
Say's that when they test and link the bikes up to a computer that measures rpm's and then ask the riders how much of the time they were wide open they say everywhere and computer essentially say's NEVER.

Not that they weren't going fast but wide open....not so much.

Mathes will tell you.

And I really enjoyed the Dubach podcast. Dr. D seems like a cool dude.
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Xeno
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1/2/2011 9:31pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2011 9:39pm
What's the top speed of a 450 with stock gearing? It's 70+ MPH, right? Motocross tracks are not designed for riding a 450 wide open.
You would have to go to the desert or a grand prix course to collect 'wide open' telemetry for dirt bikes.

And Dr. D is like a human dyno- dude has more seat time than almost anybody, and can test better than any computer!
tobz
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1/2/2011 9:37pm
My efi programmer for my kxf 450 told the story that i was hardly ever wide open, even though it feels like it. Hardly a myth....
skidsteer16
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1/2/2011 9:39pm
Xeno wrote:
What's the top speed of a 450 with stock gearing? It's 70+ MPH, right? Motocross tracks are not designed for riding a 450 wide open. You...
What's the top speed of a 450 with stock gearing? It's 70+ MPH, right? Motocross tracks are not designed for riding a 450 wide open.
You would have to go to the desert or a grand prix course to collect 'wide open' telemetry for dirt bikes.

And Dr. D is like a human dyno- dude has more seat time than almost anybody, and can test better than any computer!
Umm...you don't have to be going top speed to be wide open...just sayin.
jeffro503
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1/2/2011 9:44pm
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close to being at "full speed". Your throttle only twists so hard....and I have damn near stretched my cables.

Now a good Pro rider.......sheeeesh...fergit about it! especially those lites riders! They are on full throttle more than they are not.

Doug is a stud and a legend.....but I don't care what that friggin' computer thing said.

Being wide open....and going full speed are two completely separate things here.

The Shop

Cody24
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1/2/2011 9:55pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close...
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close to being at "full speed". Your throttle only twists so hard....and I have damn near stretched my cables.

Now a good Pro rider.......sheeeesh...fergit about it! especially those lites riders! They are on full throttle more than they are not.

Doug is a stud and a legend.....but I don't care what that friggin' computer thing said.

Being wide open....and going full speed are two completely separate things here.
Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at top speed on a supercross or motocross track all the time...but wide open? Now that happens all the time.
1/2/2011 10:03pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close...
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close to being at "full speed". Your throttle only twists so hard....and I have damn near stretched my cables.

Now a good Pro rider.......sheeeesh...fergit about it! especially those lites riders! They are on full throttle more than they are not.

Doug is a stud and a legend.....but I don't care what that friggin' computer thing said.

Being wide open....and going full speed are two completely separate things here.
Cody24 wrote:
Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at top speed on a supercross or motocross track all the time...but wide open? Now...
Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at top speed on a supercross or motocross track all the time...but wide open? Now that happens all the time.
Sounds like you guy's know more than Doctor D?
Shawn142
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1/2/2011 10:07pm
You're dealing with a lot of variables. How are they measuring WOT? By reaching max RPM, reading a throttle stop sensor (that doesn't exist), voltage? I know I hit the throttle stop on my 450 on occasion, but would that show up as WOT on some data logger? Probably not unless it was prolonged, and on an MX track it never is.
1/2/2011 10:09pm
Say's that when they test and link the bikes up to a computer that measures rpm's and then ask the riders how much of the time...
Say's that when they test and link the bikes up to a computer that measures rpm's and then ask the riders how much of the time they were wide open they say everywhere and computer essentially say's NEVER.

Not that they weren't going fast but wide open....not so much.

Mathes will tell you.

And I really enjoyed the Dubach podcast. Dr. D seems like a cool dude.
"when they test and link the bikes up to a computer that measures rpm's"

Wide open doesn't always mean popping off the rev limiter for any decent rider. Sounds to me like if you really wanted to know how often someone was wide open you'd have to have your computer linked to something else. Like the throttle.
Cody24
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1/2/2011 10:10pm
Sounds like you guy's know more than Doctor D?
Your telling me you never twist the throttle to the stop?
jeffro503
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1/2/2011 10:18pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2011 10:19pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close...
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close to being at "full speed". Your throttle only twists so hard....and I have damn near stretched my cables.

Now a good Pro rider.......sheeeesh...fergit about it! especially those lites riders! They are on full throttle more than they are not.

Doug is a stud and a legend.....but I don't care what that friggin' computer thing said.

Being wide open....and going full speed are two completely separate things here.
Cody24 wrote:
Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at top speed on a supercross or motocross track all the time...but wide open? Now...
Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at top speed on a supercross or motocross track all the time...but wide open? Now that happens all the time.
Sounds like you guy's know more than Doctor D?
Seriously......"IF" you do ride....you would understand what I said above. I'm not saying you don't ride....I'm just saying that if you "do ride"....then you would know that the throttle gets pushed to the stops quite a bit.



What i was trying to say is....full throttle happens all the time.......full speed.....I would think very , very rarely. AND....is that full speed in top gear or in 2nd?



Us MX guys don't hardly ever ( maybe never ) get one of these bikes going full speed on any big outdoor MX track....let alone an SX track. GNCC and worcs riders will tell you differently though.



Measuring RPM's on a dirt bike tells you nothing about full throttle! Now if they were to measure how much fuel is shooting through the EFI and what the max amount is.....that will give you a better idea.



It's physics........to get to full speed.......you need full throttle , to get to full speed right? We are all on our way to full speed before we have to shut it down to make a corner , or not over jump something.



Understand what I'm saying?
Xeno
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1/2/2011 10:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2011 10:19pm
Shawn142 wrote:
You're dealing with a lot of variables. How are they measuring WOT? By reaching max RPM, reading a throttle stop sensor (that doesn't exist), voltage? I...
You're dealing with a lot of variables. How are they measuring WOT? By reaching max RPM, reading a throttle stop sensor (that doesn't exist), voltage? I know I hit the throttle stop on my 450 on occasion, but would that show up as WOT on some data logger? Probably not unless it was prolonged, and on an MX track it never is.
Factory telemetry devices can record the throttle position from 0-100%, and its duration in each position.
davis224
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1/2/2011 11:21pm
Sounds like you guys are proving the myth. I remember a test like this being done a while ago with 2 strokes on a SX track, maybe it was RC on pro circuit? Wasn't wide open that often. But yes, you spend about 1% of the time at wide open throttle compared to what you think.
1/2/2011 11:26pm
We're gonna need the Doctor to clarify or you guy's are gonna have to listen to the podcast.

What the Dr. was saying was the dyno and wide open don't really matter so much when building a pipe, a tranny or whatever.

It's usability. If you are hitting the stop all the time you need bottom end.

If you are hitting the stop rarely, you got the grunt and may need more top end so as to not need to shift. Because shifting up to get more top speed and then having to immediatly click down to enter a tight turn is not optimum on tight tracks, sx tracks.

So he tests bikes for this and makes his pipes according to those real world needs........and he says dyno #'s are for marketing programs not motocross tracks.

Jus' sayin'
jeffro503
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1/3/2011 1:11am
We're gonna need the Doctor to clarify or you guy's are gonna have to listen to the podcast. What the Dr. was saying was the dyno...
We're gonna need the Doctor to clarify or you guy's are gonna have to listen to the podcast.

What the Dr. was saying was the dyno and wide open don't really matter so much when building a pipe, a tranny or whatever.

It's usability. If you are hitting the stop all the time you need bottom end.

If you are hitting the stop rarely, you got the grunt and may need more top end so as to not need to shift. Because shifting up to get more top speed and then having to immediatly click down to enter a tight turn is not optimum on tight tracks, sx tracks.

So he tests bikes for this and makes his pipes according to those real world needs........and he says dyno #'s are for marketing programs not motocross tracks.

Jus' sayin'
I would believe all that for sure. And he has a point as to how much "full throttle" really gets used to. If I really think about it , I do hit full throttle a lot around an MX track , but it doesn't stay in that position for very long....sometimes just a split second. Something like the Washougal uphill ( horse power hill ) I'd say that i have sucker pinned for a good 6 - 8 seconds before letting off at the top. Or even better yet....what about a few of them monster hills at GH? Anyways , I understand what you are saying.
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1/3/2011 1:19am
I sometimes podium in the Vet Novice class, and I can say that I am WFO on my 450 ALL the time. I NEVER shut off. I wish I had a twin 450 because a stock 450 doesn't make enough power for bad asses like me. Shoot, I'm so badass that I even drive my truck WFO when the 450 is in the back.

Shake and bake!!!
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1/3/2011 1:45am
jeffro503 wrote:
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close...
I think there is a gap in the terminology here. I am wide open in a LOT of places around a track.....but I wasn't even close to being at "full speed". Your throttle only twists so hard....and I have damn near stretched my cables.

Now a good Pro rider.......sheeeesh...fergit about it! especially those lites riders! They are on full throttle more than they are not.

Doug is a stud and a legend.....but I don't care what that friggin' computer thing said.

Being wide open....and going full speed are two completely separate things here.
Cody24 wrote:
Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at top speed on a supercross or motocross track all the time...but wide open? Now...
Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at top speed on a supercross or motocross track all the time...but wide open? Now that happens all the time.
3% for Vuilleman. Can you beat him?
Old Mate
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1/3/2011 2:17am
Big lack of traction wide open, it must vary with surfaces.
1/3/2011 2:45am
bullpen58 wrote:
I sometimes podium in the Vet Novice class, and I can say that I am WFO on my 450 ALL the time. I NEVER shut off...
I sometimes podium in the Vet Novice class, and I can say that I am WFO on my 450 ALL the time. I NEVER shut off. I wish I had a twin 450 because a stock 450 doesn't make enough power for bad asses like me. Shoot, I'm so badass that I even drive my truck WFO when the 450 is in the back.

Shake and bake!!!
WoohooWoohooWoohooBlush just wet myself
1/3/2011 2:55am
I remember an article Dubach wrote for... MXA maybe way back in his day on start tips, Doug being the holeshot king n all. In it he said that he always started in 1st on a 125 and that if you could go of the line on a 125 in second, it was a more powerfull 125 than any he had riden. That's back when Doug was on team Yamaha, just say'n it how it was.

If someone could pass on my thanks to Doug for that little gem. Gave me many a holeshot in 125's. Cheers
mx317
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1/3/2011 4:30am
A friend of mine said he was having trouble getting over a fairly big step-up jump at a local track on his 450. The next time we rode he was clearing it with no problem and said he had added HP to his bike. When I asked what he did he said he just turned the throttle further and found a lot more power!
CR500Rider
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1/3/2011 4:55am
One of the reasons a 500cc 2 stroke wasn't (and isn't) necessarily the fastest bike on the track. There are few tracks where you can utilize that amount of power.
seth505
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1/3/2011 5:15am
bullpen58 wrote:
I sometimes podium in the Vet Novice class, and I can say that I am WFO on my 450 ALL the time. I NEVER shut off...
I sometimes podium in the Vet Novice class, and I can say that I am WFO on my 450 ALL the time. I NEVER shut off. I wish I had a twin 450 because a stock 450 doesn't make enough power for bad asses like me. Shoot, I'm so badass that I even drive my truck WFO when the 450 is in the back.

Shake and bake!!!
hahaha
Roscoe33
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1/3/2011 5:41am
CR500Rider wrote:
One of the reasons a 500cc 2 stroke wasn't (and isn't) necessarily the fastest bike on the track. There are few tracks where you can utilize...
One of the reasons a 500cc 2 stroke wasn't (and isn't) necessarily the fastest bike on the track. There are few tracks where you can utilize that amount of power.
no....not lack of power but traction, power is useless without TRACTION !
KAWboy14
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1/3/2011 5:44am
only stewart is wide open.
Faceaz
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1/3/2011 6:22am
My perception is he's referring to throttle position. It's obvious bikes spend little time @ max rpm, you can hear it & don't need Dr. D to tell you. Bikes spend even less time @ full speed, only time that really happens is in the desert & has no value for testing or linking a computer to it.

I'm betting all you guys that say you spend so much time with your throttle pinned, would be really suprised if you had a computer telling how much time you actully spend there.
SteveS
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1/3/2011 7:33am
That he hits the rev limiter in the air a lot.
seth505
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1/3/2011 7:35am
I wonder what that test would show using Barcia bike?
Didn't you see Fast & Furious? the computer reads out "DANGER TO MANIFOLD" HAHA
1/3/2011 7:45am
so when barcia is bouncing his bike off the rev limiter all over the place, that isnt wide open? why? because he isnt in 5th gear doing it? the bike is still at peak rpm regardless of speed.
SteveS
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1/3/2011 7:46am
so when barcia is bouncing his bike off the rev limiter all over the place, that isnt wide open? why? because he isnt in 5th gear...
so when barcia is bouncing his bike off the rev limiter all over the place, that isnt wide open? why? because he isnt in 5th gear doing it? the bike is still at peak rpm regardless of speed.
Don't have to be wide open to hit the rev limiter, especially in the air.

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