C'mon Big Orange!

Ted722
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Sacramento, CA US
2/18/2015 10:15am Edited Date/Time 2/19/2015 9:32am
Surprised KTM doesn't offer a higher displacement 2-stroke. If they could make / sell a 350-400cc 2-stroke with today's technology that would be a fun scoot to ride no doubt.

A 2016 KTM 350 2-stroke (not just an overbore)...c'mon Big Orange...let's do this!

Here's a little discussion on that front. It'll never happen as long as the AMA still makes the rules, but with the FIM's influence who knows. As we've seen in other examples with the FIM and KTM's prominent role in World GP...there's a possibility the displacement rules could change.

If they change it at the GP level, it would eventually role down to the AMA. It would be great for the sport and re-inject (pun intended) life and variety into the series'. Would love to hear a 350cc 2-stroke going over a big triple indoors. Heck, look at TP199 at the straight rythym with an "old" CR500 motor wedged between the frame rails.

http://motocrossactionmag.com/home-page/ask-the-mxperts-a-common-sense-…
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Katoomey
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2/18/2015 10:33am
motocross is a little bubble. KTM sells more non-motocross bikes than they do MX bikes. If you think that professional racing regulations are what is stopping KTM from building a bigger 2-stroke then you live in that bubble. Off-road motorcycle sales absolutely dwarf MX bike sales- and half of every motocross bike sold in this country will never see a motocross track in it's life, let alone an AMA/FIM sanctioned race. My point is this, if KTM thought they were viable, they would make them. plain and simple. Have you ever ridden a moto-tuned KTM 300? if you need more power than that in a 2 stroke, your just being silly. I've dyno'd a KTM with a Powerparts SX 300 topend kit, tuned for race fuel (reshaped combustion chamber), that made 62 hp. To get there from a stock KTM 300 requires head mods ($100), and an SX CDI unit ($225), and altering the port timing, (free).
norcal3737
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Livermore, CA US
2/18/2015 11:17am
The 300 is a blast. Best 2-stroke I've ever owned/ridden. Zero need for any more CC or hp than what the 300 can provide.
BobPA
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PA US
2/18/2015 11:24am
Katoomey wrote:
motocross is a little bubble. KTM sells more non-motocross bikes than they do MX bikes. If you think that professional racing regulations are what is stopping...
motocross is a little bubble. KTM sells more non-motocross bikes than they do MX bikes. If you think that professional racing regulations are what is stopping KTM from building a bigger 2-stroke then you live in that bubble. Off-road motorcycle sales absolutely dwarf MX bike sales- and half of every motocross bike sold in this country will never see a motocross track in it's life, let alone an AMA/FIM sanctioned race. My point is this, if KTM thought they were viable, they would make them. plain and simple. Have you ever ridden a moto-tuned KTM 300? if you need more power than that in a 2 stroke, your just being silly. I've dyno'd a KTM with a Powerparts SX 300 topend kit, tuned for race fuel (reshaped combustion chamber), that made 62 hp. To get there from a stock KTM 300 requires head mods ($100), and an SX CDI unit ($225), and altering the port timing, (free).
While I agree with your point, most of your statistics and based on your own optimism. Prove to me that more that half the MX bikes sold will never see a track.
Ted722
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2/18/2015 12:00pm
I've recently thrown a leg over an '01 CR500 ( I've owned it the last 2 years) and the power is addicting. I have a finely tuned '06 RM250 that is making 46-48hp...don't know never dyno'd it, but the 500 is so much more fun to ride in certain situations.

There's no replacement for displacement even on the 2-stroke. The CR500 I have has a bucket load more torque than my 250 and, if ridden properly, could lay waist to the 250 on certain tracks, off-road trails, or hillclimbs.

So, whatever bubble I'm in, I like choices. And not just for racing. Throw a paddle on it and hit Pismo, race or practice on a motocross track, race or practice on a Cross Country loop, or slap some 17-inch slicks on for super-moto.

A higher displacement current 2-stroke would be a nice option to have. KTM has done a good job of thinking out of the box. Time for that thinking to make this wish come true.

The Shop

downard254
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Bremen, OH US
2/18/2015 12:58pm
I think the two strokes need more torque to compete with the four strokes. That, and breadth of power range is the four strokes forte. If, say a 325-350cc two stroke was built with the same hp as a four stroke 450 (you wouldn't need more hp than that) the resulting torque increase from the extra displacement would help with tractability and acceleration.

I think.
RPM68
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DFW, TX US
2/18/2015 1:27pm
norcal3737 wrote:
The 300 is a blast. Best 2-stroke I've ever owned/ridden. Zero need for any more CC or hp than what the 300 can provide.
agreed, most people do 1 maybe 2 laps on my bike and go home crying.
Ted722
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2/18/2015 1:43pm Edited Date/Time 2/18/2015 1:44pm
The best you know is the best you've ridden. No one here has that kind of knowledge of how good a current 350cc or there abouts 2-stroke could be.

I could maybe include my '01 KX327 (bore 74mm / stroke 76mm), but it was tuned for off-road and worked outstanding in that application.
OldYZRider1
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2/18/2015 1:51pm
They already have a design for a 380cc motor. They offered it in SX and offroad tuned models back in '00. They could update that and update the 200SX engine while their at it (that's what I want).
Katoomey
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2/18/2015 3:33pm
Ted722 wrote:
The best you know is the best you've ridden. No one here has that kind of knowledge of how good a current 350cc or there abouts...
The best you know is the best you've ridden. No one here has that kind of knowledge of how good a current 350cc or there abouts 2-stroke could be.

I could maybe include my '01 KX327 (bore 74mm / stroke 76mm), but it was tuned for off-road and worked outstanding in that application.
I don't disagree with you that a 350cc two stroke wouldn't be a hoot. It most definitely would, I'm just responding to the manufacturing aspect of it all. The title of the thread is "C'mon Big Orange",

I still think if you tried a properly tuned SX 300 you'd be pleasantly surprised, maybe even amazed.
bigborefan
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Urbana, IL US
2/18/2015 5:31pm Edited Date/Time 2/18/2015 5:32pm
I rode KX-500s for years. A KTM 300 is just a tiny KX-500. Obviously not the same amount of horsepower, but it was sweet machine. Never ridden a bike that could go so low in the revs, not stall, and still be making power, The thing is a billy goat as well. No wonder they are the choice in extreme enduro.

I sometimes miss that KX-500. I go to Loretta Lynns and ride trials sometimes There is some fast stuff I'd like to ride on the ol KX.

Closest four stroke I have ridden to the KX was a Berg 570 and a Berg 550.
2/18/2015 5:33pm
RPM68 wrote:
agreed, most people do 1 maybe 2 laps on my bike and go home crying.
Crying over the fact they don't have one? Laughing
kiwifan
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2/18/2015 6:38pm
[img]http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/mike52_photo/montessa/760maico.jpg[/img]
I bet that was fun to kick over!!!!!

wildbill
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Christmas Valley, OR US
2/18/2015 10:36pm
Ted722 wrote:
I've recently thrown a leg over an '01 CR500 ( I've owned it the last 2 years) and the power is addicting. I have a finely...
I've recently thrown a leg over an '01 CR500 ( I've owned it the last 2 years) and the power is addicting. I have a finely tuned '06 RM250 that is making 46-48hp...don't know never dyno'd it, but the 500 is so much more fun to ride in certain situations.

There's no replacement for displacement even on the 2-stroke. The CR500 I have has a bucket load more torque than my 250 and, if ridden properly, could lay waist to the 250 on certain tracks, off-road trails, or hillclimbs.

So, whatever bubble I'm in, I like choices. And not just for racing. Throw a paddle on it and hit Pismo, race or practice on a motocross track, race or practice on a Cross Country loop, or slap some 17-inch slicks on for super-moto.

A higher displacement current 2-stroke would be a nice option to have. KTM has done a good job of thinking out of the box. Time for that thinking to make this wish come true.
Especially in the sand. I raced a gp in Millican that had a fun 2 mile mx track with a longer 10 mile or so loop that reminded me of real motocross. I was wishing for more power out of my 89 CR500 while clutching it out of loose sandy berms. Only track I ever wanted more power on. Mine was built to mimic the 1985's blast of fun.
mx216
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Portland, OR US
2/18/2015 11:00pm
Ted722 wrote:
I've recently thrown a leg over an '01 CR500 ( I've owned it the last 2 years) and the power is addicting. I have a finely...
I've recently thrown a leg over an '01 CR500 ( I've owned it the last 2 years) and the power is addicting. I have a finely tuned '06 RM250 that is making 46-48hp...don't know never dyno'd it, but the 500 is so much more fun to ride in certain situations.

There's no replacement for displacement even on the 2-stroke. The CR500 I have has a bucket load more torque than my 250 and, if ridden properly, could lay waist to the 250 on certain tracks, off-road trails, or hillclimbs.

So, whatever bubble I'm in, I like choices. And not just for racing. Throw a paddle on it and hit Pismo, race or practice on a motocross track, race or practice on a Cross Country loop, or slap some 17-inch slicks on for super-moto.

A higher displacement current 2-stroke would be a nice option to have. KTM has done a good job of thinking out of the box. Time for that thinking to make this wish come true.
Just imagine if the 2 strokes had the development of the 4 strokes! The race 250s are putting down an easy 48 and some are higher(I know different dynos read some different numbers). But a 250 2 stroke with an honest 10 years extra development I feel would be capable against even the current 450s, as you get to a point where a 120/80 of any compound can only handle so much.even the 250fs are running them in sx because the weight just isn't an issue any longer.
zehn
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2/18/2015 11:07pm
[img]http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/mike52_photo/montessa/760maico.jpg[/img]
Not sure I understand the "Don't ask" listings for those parts prices? Is it just a funny or am I missing something here?
Harry_Gray
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Texoma region, OK US
2/19/2015 9:15am
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/02/19/80912/s1200_atk_int.jpg[/img]


What do you do with a bike like that lol???
Suns_PSD
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Austin, TX US
2/19/2015 9:32am Edited Date/Time 2/19/2015 9:44am
I've been begging for this bike for years.

No fancy DI needed, just a carbed modern technology big bore KTM based on the 250SX. I did bore and stroke my own 250SX and got it up to 314cc but I think a factory built big bore is just a better solution.

The 300 cylinders (only 293cc), well I'm just not in love with that powerband and I actually prefer the stock 250cc powerband. I've ridden many different 300s and they are usually flat up top and violent on the bottom. Neither condition is condusive to fast lap times.

My 314cc engine was the fastest by a solid 3hp that Lectron ever had on their dyno (they had removed a fully build overbored YZ450F 15 minutes earlier). But the overall package, while great to ride, isn't 100% right. Mainly the transmission gears were chosen for the entirely different powerband of a stock 250SX. 2nd gear is completely useless and too short for the track. With my style I'm topped out about 2/3 of the way thru the really tight turn. And I don't have quite enough bark to pull 3rd out of the tightest sandy turns with authority and 450Fs wil pull me a slight bit cause they use 2nd. Someday I might install an XC 300 2nd gear in to the bike to get 2nd a little taller. BUt I'd rather just go plunk down $9K for a factory built big bore 2 stroke.

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