Clean-up on aisle DC

GuyB
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GuyB
Edited Date/Time 10/16/2013 7:07pm
If you've got a constructive idea for Davey, how about sending it to him via email?

If you just want to heckle repeatedly, ad nauseum, you'll probably find your gems in the Dumbgeon.
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queen of spodes 10/12/2013 12:05pm
10/12/2013 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 12:09pm
Stevie it's frustrating hearing DC's repsonses to the issue at hand because it's so blatently out of touch with the bulk of riders today. Canada gets it. Europe gets it. American MX seems to be dictated by the almighty dollar, not necessarily what is best for the continued growth of the sport at the family and amatuer level.

I don't agree that people should be beligerant towards Davey Coombs. That probably makes things worse and only encourages him to phase out anything except the perspective of the Jap-ufacturers and major teams.

If a lot of people are asking for the same thing, it's worth having a public discussion about. That's how it works in government.. how it works (usually) in the private sector too. You start by going through the normal channels and when that falls on deaf ears, you start a pubic inquiry and that often results in getting things changed.
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Overdrive 10/12/2013 12:09pm
10/12/2013 12:09pm
A forum is where people come together to discuss ideas, email is where ideas go to get shit canned by the powers that be.

Even if DC stopped posting and never came on the board again, the subjects would still be brought up and debated ad nauseum because the subjects strike a nerve with the moto community.

People care about the future of the sport and they are going to debate it even if its not constructive. Not that I'm telling you anything you don't know.
GuyB
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GuyB 10/12/2013 12:14pm
10/12/2013 12:14pm
queen of spodes wrote:
Stevie it's frustrating hearing DC's repsonses to the issue at hand because it's so blatently out of touch with the bulk of riders today. Canada gets...
Stevie it's frustrating hearing DC's repsonses to the issue at hand because it's so blatently out of touch with the bulk of riders today. Canada gets it. Europe gets it. American MX seems to be dictated by the almighty dollar, not necessarily what is best for the continued growth of the sport at the family and amatuer level.

I don't agree that people should be beligerant towards Davey Coombs. That probably makes things worse and only encourages him to phase out anything except the perspective of the Jap-ufacturers and major teams.

If a lot of people are asking for the same thing, it's worth having a public discussion about. That's how it works in government.. how it works (usually) in the private sector too. You start by going through the normal channels and when that falls on deaf ears, you start a pubic inquiry and that often results in getting things changed.
Only my mom calls me Stevie. Smile

"...blatantly out of touch with the bulk of riders today."

Are you talking pro riders? Or amateur riders? Local rules? Or pro rules?

On the GP side, they've talked about boosting the size of the two-strokes to 300cc to run with the big-bore class. They also run a separate series for the 125s.

I think Davey generally deals with the reality of what he has to work with, and most of the people offering suggestions are looking at the fantasy of how they wish it could be. There's a huge difference there.
newmann
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newmann 10/12/2013 12:15pm
10/12/2013 12:15pm
Heaven forbid the topic of 2 strokes come up on a moto board....Tongue

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queen of spodes 10/12/2013 12:16pm
10/12/2013 12:16pm
I do agree that the one sure fire way to force change is to stop supporting the Japanese manufacturers and their teams. Stop buying green, red, and yellow (and blue if/when they stop selling the dated YZ). Buy KTM, TM, Husky even if it's a four stroke. THe fewer sales the "big 4" get the more pressure on them to scale back or get out of the business altogether. When they are gone, maybe well finally see something different. Nothing changes while they still pull the strings and we continue buying their products.
vanillaice782 10/12/2013 12:16pm
10/12/2013 12:16pm
If VitalMx made the rules they would all be forced to ride 85 CR 250s.
GuyB
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GuyB 10/12/2013 12:18pm
10/12/2013 12:18pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 12:18pm
Overdrive wrote:
A forum is where people come together to discuss ideas, email is where ideas go to get shit canned by the powers that be. Even if...
A forum is where people come together to discuss ideas, email is where ideas go to get shit canned by the powers that be.

Even if DC stopped posting and never came on the board again, the subjects would still be brought up and debated ad nauseum because the subjects strike a nerve with the moto community.

People care about the future of the sport and they are going to debate it even if its not constructive. Not that I'm telling you anything you don't know.
Yeah, but doing the same thread(s) over and over is like watching what's going on in the "other" DC. You can see how well that works.

I'm still trying to figure out who's who in the two-stroke vs. four-stroke arguments. Is the two-stroke crowd the Democrats, or the Republicans? Wink
GuyB
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GuyB 10/12/2013 12:18pm
10/12/2013 12:18pm
vanillaice782 wrote:
If VitalMx made the rules they would all be forced to ride 85 CR 250s.
You mean if some Vital MX forum members made the rules...
queen of spodes 10/12/2013 12:18pm
10/12/2013 12:18pm
GuyB wrote:
Only my mom calls me Stevie. :) "...blatantly out of touch with the bulk of riders today." Are you talking pro riders? Or amateur riders? Local...
Only my mom calls me Stevie. Smile

"...blatantly out of touch with the bulk of riders today."

Are you talking pro riders? Or amateur riders? Local rules? Or pro rules?

On the GP side, they've talked about boosting the size of the two-strokes to 300cc to run with the big-bore class. They also run a separate series for the 125s.

I think Davey generally deals with the reality of what he has to work with, and most of the people offering suggestions are looking at the fantasy of how they wish it could be. There's a huge difference there.
most of the people offering suggestions are looking at the fantasy of how they wish it could be. There's a huge difference there.

250 vs 250 is not a fantasy in Canada, it's reality. So far as I can tell the major manufacturers didn't take their balls and go home. Most of the bikes in the top 10 are thumpers - no surprise there. Pros don't want to ride two strokes. So it won't affect much to allow them in the 250 classes in America.

Short of that, having a 125/150 and/or 300 series stateside would allieviate a lot of the pressure on the powers that be to allow 250 vs 250.
queen of spodes 10/12/2013 12:20pm
10/12/2013 12:20pm
vanillaice782 wrote:
If VitalMx made the rules they would all be forced to ride 85 CR 250s.
That's hyberbole. Not at all what I'm reading in the other threads.
vanillaice782 10/12/2013 12:20pm
10/12/2013 12:20pm
vanillaice782 wrote:
If VitalMx made the rules they would all be forced to ride 85 CR 250s.
GuyB wrote:
You mean if some Vital MX forum members made the rules...
Touche' maybe you could sponsor a vintage two stroke halftime show at the nationals.
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GuyB 10/12/2013 12:21pm
10/12/2013 12:21pm
queen of spodes wrote:
I do agree that the one sure fire way to force change is to stop supporting the Japanese manufacturers and their teams. Stop buying green, red...
I do agree that the one sure fire way to force change is to stop supporting the Japanese manufacturers and their teams. Stop buying green, red, and yellow (and blue if/when they stop selling the dated YZ). Buy KTM, TM, Husky even if it's a four stroke. THe fewer sales the "big 4" get the more pressure on them to scale back or get out of the business altogether. When they are gone, maybe well finally see something different. Nothing changes while they still pull the strings and we continue buying their products.
Yeah, that's a great idea. That should really help the manufacturers see awesome potential for the continued growth of the sport.
queen of spodes 10/12/2013 12:22pm
10/12/2013 12:22pm
GuyB wrote:
Yeah, but doing the same thread(s) over and over is like watching what's going on in the "other" DC. You can see how well that works...
Yeah, but doing the same thread(s) over and over is like watching what's going on in the "other" DC. You can see how well that works.

I'm still trying to figure out who's who in the two-stroke vs. four-stroke arguments. Is the two-stroke crowd the Democrats, or the Republicans? Wink
Oh dear god, really? Inject government politics into this debate? WTF.
queen of spodes 10/12/2013 12:23pm
10/12/2013 12:23pm
GuyB wrote:
Yeah, that's a great idea. That should really help the manufacturers see awesome potential for the continued growth of the sport.
For KTM/Husky, TM, and other manufacturers - yes. Most of the brands around in the 70s aren't made today. Things change.
GuyB
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GuyB 10/12/2013 12:24pm
10/12/2013 12:24pm
vanillaice782 wrote:
If VitalMx made the rules they would all be forced to ride 85 CR 250s.
GuyB wrote:
You mean if some Vital MX forum members made the rules...
vanillaice782 wrote:
Touche' maybe you could sponsor a vintage two stroke halftime show at the nationals.
I watched/shot photos at the last one that they had at Unadilla in the Screw U area. It helped cement the idea that the way four-strokes lay down power is far superior to watching the two-strokes clutch and flail their way up it.
vanillaice782 10/12/2013 12:24pm
10/12/2013 12:24pm
GuyB wrote:
Yeah, but doing the same thread(s) over and over is like watching what's going on in the "other" DC. You can see how well that works...
Yeah, but doing the same thread(s) over and over is like watching what's going on in the "other" DC. You can see how well that works.

I'm still trying to figure out who's who in the two-stroke vs. four-stroke arguments. Is the two-stroke crowd the Democrats, or the Republicans? Wink
I can't make that call. We need OldFart here to set us straight.
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GuyB 10/12/2013 12:25pm
10/12/2013 12:25pm
queen of spodes wrote:
Oh dear god, really? Inject government politics into this debate? WTF.
My point was, the productivity level of the debate is just about equal between here and there.
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OW38B 10/12/2013 12:29pm
10/12/2013 12:29pm
GuyB wrote:
Yeah, but doing the same thread(s) over and over is like watching what's going on in the "other" DC. You can see how well that works...
Yeah, but doing the same thread(s) over and over is like watching what's going on in the "other" DC. You can see how well that works.

I'm still trying to figure out who's who in the two-stroke vs. four-stroke arguments. Is the two-stroke crowd the Democrats, or the Republicans? Wink
I think pro Two stroke guys are more Libertarian...............let ALL 250cc bikes race in the 250cc class. Cool

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steve_97060
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steve_97060 10/12/2013 12:29pm
10/12/2013 12:29pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 12:29pm
GuyB wrote:
You mean if some Vital MX forum members made the rules...
vanillaice782 wrote:
Touche' maybe you could sponsor a vintage two stroke halftime show at the nationals.
GuyB wrote:
I watched/shot photos at the last one that they had at Unadilla in the Screw U area. It helped cement the idea that the way four-strokes...
I watched/shot photos at the last one that they had at Unadilla in the Screw U area. It helped cement the idea that the way four-strokes lay down power is far superior to watching the two-strokes clutch and flail their way up it.
well there you have it, a photo op conclusivley proves 4 strokes are superior, end of debate..

stamp it..
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OW38B 10/12/2013 12:31pm
10/12/2013 12:31pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 2:16pm
steve_97060 wrote:
well there you have it, a photo op conclusivley proves 4 strokes are superior, end of debate..

stamp it..
DC, the AMA and MXSports say you are an idiot. Go ask them.
vanillaice782 10/12/2013 12:32pm
10/12/2013 12:32pm
We just need someone like Rosa Parks to line up for a 250 national on a 250 two stroke. If she refuses to give up her gate position for a four stroke and gets the holeshot it could start a movement.
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steve_97060 10/12/2013 12:33pm
10/12/2013 12:33pm
queen of spodes wrote:
I do agree that the one sure fire way to force change is to stop supporting the Japanese manufacturers and their teams. Stop buying green, red...
I do agree that the one sure fire way to force change is to stop supporting the Japanese manufacturers and their teams. Stop buying green, red, and yellow (and blue if/when they stop selling the dated YZ). Buy KTM, TM, Husky even if it's a four stroke. THe fewer sales the "big 4" get the more pressure on them to scale back or get out of the business altogether. When they are gone, maybe well finally see something different. Nothing changes while they still pull the strings and we continue buying their products.
GuyB wrote:
Yeah, that's a great idea. That should really help the manufacturers see awesome potential for the continued growth of the sport.
how is limiting your options going to grow the sport?

this sport isn't growing, anyone who has been around since the 70's knows that. it has been on a long and irrevocable downward trend..

but yeah, keep talking about growing the sport..
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Shawn142 10/12/2013 12:35pm
10/12/2013 12:35pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 12:41pm
queen of spodes wrote:
[i]most of the people offering suggestions are looking at the fantasy of how they wish it could be. There's a huge difference there.[/i] 250 vs 250...
most of the people offering suggestions are looking at the fantasy of how they wish it could be. There's a huge difference there.

250 vs 250 is not a fantasy in Canada, it's reality. So far as I can tell the major manufacturers didn't take their balls and go home. Most of the bikes in the top 10 are thumpers - no surprise there. Pros don't want to ride two strokes. So it won't affect much to allow them in the 250 classes in America.

Short of that, having a 125/150 and/or 300 series stateside would allieviate a lot of the pressure on the powers that be to allow 250 vs 250.
Umm.. there have to be factory teams in a series before they can pull support. To my knowledge the only factory team left in Canada was KTM. Do you expect the Japanese to not allow their bikes to be raced? It's their dollars and jobs that matter, not the new bikes pros and teams buy themselves to go race.
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mynewcr250 10/12/2013 1:02pm
10/12/2013 1:02pm
i can see where this thread is going....I think its funny that GuyB inadvertently started a 2 vs 4 thread. you had to see this coming.
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500guy 10/12/2013 1:23pm
10/12/2013 1:23pm
Sure you say I am not Malala but I can't help but feel your site has been the victim of attempted murder by the 2 stroke Taliban.
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Harry_Gray 10/12/2013 1:31pm
10/12/2013 1:31pm Edited Date/Time 10/12/2013 1:33pm
This could turn into a ten page thread...don't know if I want to see it. No matter what DC does (whether it's good or bad...); somebody is going to piss and moan about it. Let's ignore the fact that we can see nationals same day (most of the time). We aren't going to be NASCAR, and the 2 stroke/4 stroke argument won't end. He's doing really well with the resources that he has to work with now, and the fan should be grateful for that...The only thing that we can hope for is that the European OEM's are going to flesh out/develop the two stroke and in turn; the AMA will recognize that and hopefully (in the future) we can work them back into the program. It isn't going to happen in 2014 and this "Magic Wand" that DC supposedly has will not make it happen any sooner. As he mentioned before, if we can (as fans/consumers/weekend warriors) go out and buy the two strokes and start this from the bottom up, hopefully, the AMA will notice. Keep in mind, Husky is making a strong comeback, TM has been in the shadows for awhile w/ other companies like Beta. If the market dictates; we could see displacement adjustment (150cc/300cc's for two strokes in the current class structure) or perhaps a 125cc support class at the nationals/sx races. Either we start this at the ground level or stop bitching about it on forums such as this. Flame on, IDGAF...
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holeshot100 10/12/2013 2:17pm
10/12/2013 2:17pm
DC runs Loretta Lynns and 250 two stokes are allowed in the 250 class. I think that says a lot right there about his personal beliefs about the cc rule. Where he was able to make a change he did. Even that change did not happen without a lot of opposition form the manufactures. The manufactures still play a huge part in the top level of amateur racing, although much less support since the economy turned 5 years ago.
Here is an example of the power of the Japanese manufactures in the sport and the rules.Years ago at the amateur level the cc's in the 250F class for two strokes was moved from 125cc to 144cc. KTM purposely made a 144cc bike. The AMA then made a rule that the only way you could run a 144cc was by increasing cc on a 125(I can't remember if it was bore or stoke/or you could do both). So the Japanese manufactures pretty much put an end to that KTM.
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smeg 10/12/2013 2:20pm
10/12/2013 2:20pm
I am confused about the whole 250 2vs4 thing.

I am no expert but as far as I can tell the only thing that would change if the AMA allowed an equal displacement rule in the 250 class is there would be "true" privateers out there racing 250 2 strokes............ That's it.

Nothing would change at the factory level.

The only reason not to have equal displacement is if the factories, who support this sport, are concerned that a team likes PC or TwoTwo or MotoConcepts switched back to 2 strokes and did well.

Is this just all politics or am I missing something?
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DrSweden 10/12/2013 2:22pm
10/12/2013 2:22pm
500guy wrote:
Sure you say I am not Malala but I can't help but feel your site has been the victim of attempted murder by the 2 stroke...
Sure you say I am not Malala but I can't help but feel your site has been the victim of attempted murder by the 2 stroke Taliban.
Dunno, some old farts are being nostalgic sure, but there seems to be a change going on everywhere? Maybe wishful tninking, but two stroke only races draws people, becomes major threads here, the show me your smoker thread rules, the emx series in Europe seems to be growning, this new 300 class soon to be kicked off, and no doubt in my small neck of the wood more tiddlers are to be seen. Reminds me of 2005 in numbers of thumpers vs smokers compared to 2007-2011 were few smokers was seen. I think u are wrong when thinking a filthy few is making much noice. In the beginning it felt we were only a few, but now it appears to be movement that is being spread. Seems to be a matter of 125 more than two strokes in general though...
500guy
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500guy 10/12/2013 2:42pm
10/12/2013 2:42pm
500guy wrote:
Sure you say I am not Malala but I can't help but feel your site has been the victim of attempted murder by the 2 stroke...
Sure you say I am not Malala but I can't help but feel your site has been the victim of attempted murder by the 2 stroke Taliban.
DrSweden wrote:
Dunno, some old farts are being nostalgic sure, but there seems to be a change going on everywhere? Maybe wishful tninking, but two stroke only races...
Dunno, some old farts are being nostalgic sure, but there seems to be a change going on everywhere? Maybe wishful tninking, but two stroke only races draws people, becomes major threads here, the show me your smoker thread rules, the emx series in Europe seems to be growning, this new 300 class soon to be kicked off, and no doubt in my small neck of the wood more tiddlers are to be seen. Reminds me of 2005 in numbers of thumpers vs smokers compared to 2007-2011 were few smokers was seen. I think u are wrong when thinking a filthy few is making much noice. In the beginning it felt we were only a few, but now it appears to be movement that is being spread. Seems to be a matter of 125 more than two strokes in general though...
That's all fine and I like 2 Strokes too but attacking DC and demanding the Series Change rules is Absurd.

People are free to Start their own series and make what ever rules they want, But they don't because it's a losing proposition.

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