Can't ride the bike to its full potential?

Torco1
Posts
6591
Joined
4/27/2007
Location
Corona, CA US
12/23/2013 2:32pm Edited Date/Time 12/25/2013 9:21pm
I hear this all the time and I was wondering what it even means? How do you even gauge if a bike is being ridden to its full potential? Would it be redlining the motor in every gear? Does it mean bottoming out the suspension over every jump? Does it mean wearing the tires out? It seems silly to say the bikes aren't being ridden to the fullest. Have you seen pro's practice bikes? Pro's destroy bikes the way they ride them. They wear parts out on bikes that the normal rider wouldn't even think was possible. So again, I was just wanting to see if anyone can tell me what it actually means to ride or not ride a bike to its full potential.
|
EZZA 95B
Posts
9095
Joined
11/3/2010
Location
AU
Fantasy
1062nd
12/23/2013 2:39pm
I can't remember who it was, but there was talk about having throttle sensors on the bike and full throttle was rarely achieved...
I think it Matthes talking about Yamaha testing data acquisition when he was a mechanic there..? Pretty vague, sorry.
rosebud441
Posts
1766
Joined
1/25/2012
Location
Bellingham, WA US
12/23/2013 2:50pm Edited Date/Time 12/23/2013 2:51pm
I think i can ride our PW80 to its full potential.. My 250 two-stroke, not even close..
Bytor
Posts
856
Joined
9/23/2012
Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
12/23/2013 2:51pm
Torco1 wrote:
I hear this all the time and I was wondering what it even means? How do you even gauge if a bike is being ridden to...
I hear this all the time and I was wondering what it even means? How do you even gauge if a bike is being ridden to its full potential? Would it be redlining the motor in every gear? Does it mean bottoming out the suspension over every jump? Does it mean wearing the tires out? It seems silly to say the bikes aren't being ridden to the fullest. Have you seen pro's practice bikes? Pro's destroy bikes the way they ride them. They wear parts out on bikes that the normal rider wouldn't even think was possible. So again, I was just wanting to see if anyone can tell me what it actually means to ride or not ride a bike to its full potential.
Such a ridiculous statement. Lol
avidchimp
Posts
4511
Joined
7/9/2008
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA US
Fantasy
1102nd
12/23/2013 2:53pm Edited Date/Time 12/23/2013 2:54pm
EZZA 95B wrote:
I can't remember who it was, but there was talk about having throttle sensors on the bike and full throttle was rarely achieved... I think it...
I can't remember who it was, but there was talk about having throttle sensors on the bike and full throttle was rarely achieved...
I think it Matthes talking about Yamaha testing data acquisition when he was a mechanic there..? Pretty vague, sorry.
On a SX track full throttle is almost never achieved, other than the start straight, and even then that is rare for more than a second or two. Outdoors is a different story altogether.

All I know is I can destroy a TTR125 like no other.

The Shop

Bytor
Posts
856
Joined
9/23/2012
Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
12/23/2013 2:56pm
Untill there are robots riding the bikes than I geuss we will never know.
pecu_83
Posts
347
Joined
10/27/2010
Location
Parola FI
12/23/2013 2:58pm
Think of JS256 on a 125, that was to the bikes fullest potential. Think of Johnny O'Mara on a 125 in MXdN1986, that was to the bikes fullest potential. Think of JS7 on a 250 against a field of 450´s, that was to the bikes fullest potential. I dont think that anyone can actually ride a 450 to its full potential. Just look at the lap times between the 250s and 450s of today. I think some of Bubbas Suzuki training videos are the closest that anyone has come to riding a 450 as fast as it can go.
machine
Posts
6405
Joined
1/5/2011
Location
Collettsville, NC US
12/23/2013 3:00pm
If the bike is capable of doing things you/we can't do, without crashing our brains out, I guess we aren't riding it to its full potential..lol
GuyB
Posts
35693
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1274th
12/23/2013 3:00pm
avidchimp wrote:
On a SX track full throttle is almost never achieved, other than the start straight, and even then that is rare for more than a second...
On a SX track full throttle is almost never achieved, other than the start straight, and even then that is rare for more than a second or two. Outdoors is a different story altogether.

All I know is I can destroy a TTR125 like no other.
That's part of it. Like AC said, the mount of tine spent at wide open is very small. Teams say it's very interesting comparing what they hear from riders to what they see on data downloaded from the bike.
Bytor
Posts
856
Joined
9/23/2012
Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
12/23/2013 3:05pm
rosebud441 wrote:
I think i can ride our PW80 to its full potential.. My 250 two-stroke, not even close..
But by some peoples logic there will always be someone faster.
avidchimp
Posts
4511
Joined
7/9/2008
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA US
Fantasy
1102nd
12/23/2013 3:07pm
avidchimp wrote:
On a SX track full throttle is almost never achieved, other than the start straight, and even then that is rare for more than a second...
On a SX track full throttle is almost never achieved, other than the start straight, and even then that is rare for more than a second or two. Outdoors is a different story altogether.

All I know is I can destroy a TTR125 like no other.
GuyB wrote:
That's part of it. Like AC said, the mount of tine spent at wide open is very small. Teams say it's very interesting comparing what they...
That's part of it. Like AC said, the mount of tine spent at wide open is very small. Teams say it's very interesting comparing what they hear from riders to what they see on data downloaded from the bike.
Yeah, in talking to certain people, it is funny to hear the difference in what the rider says is happening and what the data acquisition shows.
Titan1
Posts
8592
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT US
12/23/2013 3:15pm
I don't know what riding a bike to its full potential is, or looks like...but I can sure tell when someone is NOT riding a bike at its full potential.
Spartacus
Posts
2270
Joined
5/20/2011
Location
PW US
12/23/2013 3:15pm
Define "full potential" please.
Tumblin
Posts
1208
Joined
7/27/2011
Location
Jacksonville, OR US
12/23/2013 3:16pm
pecu_83 wrote:
Think of JS256 on a 125, that was to the bikes fullest potential. Think of Johnny O'Mara on a 125 in MXdN1986, that was to the...
Think of JS256 on a 125, that was to the bikes fullest potential. Think of Johnny O'Mara on a 125 in MXdN1986, that was to the bikes fullest potential. Think of JS7 on a 250 against a field of 450´s, that was to the bikes fullest potential. I dont think that anyone can actually ride a 450 to its full potential. Just look at the lap times between the 250s and 450s of today. I think some of Bubbas Suzuki training videos are the closest that anyone has come to riding a 450 as fast as it can go.
EZZA 95B
Posts
9095
Joined
11/3/2010
Location
AU
Fantasy
1062nd
12/23/2013 3:18pm
I could haul on my CRF50..! Used all 2.5hp.Laughing
Mouse153
Posts
548
Joined
2/16/2013
Location
Virginia Beach, VA US
12/23/2013 3:25pm
EZZA 95B wrote:
I could haul on my CRF50..! Used all 2.5hp.Laughing
I even have my throttle set screw backed all the way out! I am the man!
12/23/2013 3:30pm
I don't think it will ever be possible to ride a bike to it full potential as to me the only way to guarantee that no one could ride it faster around the track would be to hold it wide open in top gear all the way around the track. If riders even came close to doing that then the top speed of the bikes would be raised.

If it was possible to ride a 125 to its full potential then there would be no need for anything bigger, but the fact of the matter is the rider will always be the machines limiting factor and not the other way around. I'm not saying that a 125 is as fast as a 450 because it isn't but if a rider can only use 80% of a 125's potential but can use 50% of a 450's potential then they'll be faster on the 450.
smrscott
Posts
379
Joined
12/15/2009
Location
Tustin, CA US
12/23/2013 3:43pm Edited Date/Time 12/23/2013 3:47pm
There was a time that most bikes could be ridden past their ability with the right rider aboard. Back in the 70s-80s and 90s bikes were slower and suspension and chassis set up was nothing near what it is today.

Top riders would over-ride a motorcycle and either break it or learn to slow down to go faster.

There has been loads of interviews with riders like Decoster asking him why he was so smooth - his answer was often that if he rode hard and hit all of the bumps the bike would break in half or the suspension would kick him off the motorcycle.

Top riders during the 125 days could ride a bike to the limit and get away with it - and often times if they over-rode a bike and keep a flow flow - they would be slower. Some bikes back in the day if you tried to push them too far, they would tell you to slow down or toss to you the ground the next lap if you did not listen to it.

TODAY: Racers attempt to ride the bike to the limit but as you can see, when they go down now it is way more violent and nasty compared to the 70s- 80s or even 90s.

The motorcycles are so advanced compared to older technology - the bikes are probably better than most of the riders in the world. That is why a SX racer can make a main event on stock bikes with limited changes, suspension setup being the number one. The bikes are so good that by the time you have passed a limit it is too late and there is little time to slow down or make corrections before it spits you off the bike. RV has learned to push the limits of his motorcycle and his ability — most of the time gets away with it, yet even the best get hit the ground now and again

Today riding a modern 250f or 450f to the limit doesn't happen often and if you think you are, odds are your talent ran out long before the bikes performance and handling has reached the top.
EZZA 95B
Posts
9095
Joined
11/3/2010
Location
AU
Fantasy
1062nd
12/23/2013 4:06pm
EZZA 95B wrote:
I could haul on my CRF50..! Used all 2.5hp.Laughing
Mouse153 wrote:
I even have my throttle set screw backed all the way out! I am the man!
Took me a while to get enough confidence to do that...
Torco1
Posts
6591
Joined
4/27/2007
Location
Corona, CA US
12/23/2013 4:32pm
Spartacus wrote:
Define "full potential" please.
That's just it, what is the full potential? How do you even measure that? If there is a threshold for a part of the bike, how do you know if you're close to breaking it......without breaking it. Guys blow up motors racing outdoors......does that mean they went past the potential of the motor? Suspension gets blown out, did they go past the potential of that set up? One part of a bike might be able to handle one thing, while another part breaks.
visser62
Posts
2170
Joined
5/2/2013
Location
Seattle, WA US
12/23/2013 4:38pm
There's a picture of McGrath on a Yamaha in this corner where the wheel is completely under his fender because he's pushing so hard. I've always thought of that as full potential.
RealityZ
Posts
619
Joined
8/10/2010
Location
NY US
12/23/2013 4:45pm
Apparently unless your Ryan Villopoto your not riding a bike to it's full potential.

Great Logic.
jeffro503
Posts
27442
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR US
12/23/2013 4:48pm Edited Date/Time 12/23/2013 4:51pm
Look........Taking any of these newer bikes to their full potential is just about impossible. Maybe a handful of guys on planet earth could get it even close.

Example.......go to your local MX track....watch the fastest pro there wring the living crap out of his 450.......is that bike at it's full potential? Answer : NO! Then take some guys like RV and Stewart....have them lap that poor local pro guy 3 times in a 30 min moto........you think either one of them is riding that bike to it's full potential? I would assume probably not........but it's probably damn close.

NONE of us on this board and 99% of the top pro's on this planet can not take a 450 to it's limits.......of what it's capable of doing.

Get it?

Just when you think some guy is riding his bike to the full potential........some other guy is a hair faster......so the bar keeps getting raised. So far....the machines are ahead in the " Potential department " compared to humans!
Tim507
Posts
3137
Joined
6/8/2010
Location
Oregon City, OR US
12/23/2013 4:58pm
smrscott wrote:
There was a time that most bikes could be ridden past their ability with the right rider aboard. Back in the 70s-80s and 90s bikes were...
There was a time that most bikes could be ridden past their ability with the right rider aboard. Back in the 70s-80s and 90s bikes were slower and suspension and chassis set up was nothing near what it is today.

Top riders would over-ride a motorcycle and either break it or learn to slow down to go faster.

There has been loads of interviews with riders like Decoster asking him why he was so smooth - his answer was often that if he rode hard and hit all of the bumps the bike would break in half or the suspension would kick him off the motorcycle.

Top riders during the 125 days could ride a bike to the limit and get away with it - and often times if they over-rode a bike and keep a flow flow - they would be slower. Some bikes back in the day if you tried to push them too far, they would tell you to slow down or toss to you the ground the next lap if you did not listen to it.

TODAY: Racers attempt to ride the bike to the limit but as you can see, when they go down now it is way more violent and nasty compared to the 70s- 80s or even 90s.

The motorcycles are so advanced compared to older technology - the bikes are probably better than most of the riders in the world. That is why a SX racer can make a main event on stock bikes with limited changes, suspension setup being the number one. The bikes are so good that by the time you have passed a limit it is too late and there is little time to slow down or make corrections before it spits you off the bike. RV has learned to push the limits of his motorcycle and his ability — most of the time gets away with it, yet even the best get hit the ground now and again

Today riding a modern 250f or 450f to the limit doesn't happen often and if you think you are, odds are your talent ran out long before the bikes performance and handling has reached the top.
Well said smrscottSmile

Having ridden and raced in the 60's to present you're spot on in my opinion.

The only time I ride to my limits is in my dreams and usually wake up a bit wet....LOL
newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
12/23/2013 5:26pm
Think of Newmann on a bad ass fire breathing 74 CR250 giving it everything he has trying to pass his arch nemesis on a 250 Husky. About the time he thinks there is no way possible to make it happen, along comes Tom Benolkin on a 72 Penton 125 with 5 horsepower and six neutrals and passes us both in the same corner. Not only do you realize you aren't riding the bike to its potential, you realize you just might suck.
Katoomey
Posts
1714
Joined
1/18/2013
Location
WY US
12/23/2013 5:41pm Edited Date/Time 12/23/2013 5:47pm
full potential means what is physically possible. Like the limits of traction, acceleration, the ability for the suspension to absorb impacts without hurting the rider, turning radius per given speed, stopping distance.

in the context of this discussion , however, its more philosophical than physics.

anyone can realize a bikes top speed potential.
a lot of people can realize a bikes acceleration potential on pavement
some people can realize a bikes turning radius potential on pavement
fewer guys can realize the bikes turning radius potential on dirt
even fewer guys can realize the potential of a bikes ability to absorb bumps without hurting or upsetting the rider
almost no guys can realize the full potential of traction or acceleration on dirt.
now, start compounding those elements and it becomes exponentially difficult to be at all of those potentials all of the time.

I think only a few guys in the world can get near those limits on current factory hardware.

here's where this discussion losses it way though; when the threshold of "full potential" is raised, so does the average baseline.

new tech and more refined equipment can still make someone way faster, regardless as to where they are at in regards to reaching "full potential" of the current hardware.

i.e. a guy riding a 60's mx'er at 99% of its potential is still gonna get lapped by a guy riding a modern bike at %90 of its potential. that makes this whole discussion erroneous

I would like to argue that whatever the best guy in the world can do is the current "full potential"
TX24
Posts
2768
Joined
5/7/2010
Location
San Antonio, TX US
12/23/2013 5:51pm
Even if someone could ride tapped out in top gear around a track, but there were ten guys that were even faster. Are they getting more full potential?
machine
Posts
6405
Joined
1/5/2011
Location
Collettsville, NC US
12/23/2013 5:55pm
Katoomey wrote:
full potential means what is physically possible. Like the limits of traction, acceleration, the ability for the suspension to absorb impacts without hurting the rider, turning...
full potential means what is physically possible. Like the limits of traction, acceleration, the ability for the suspension to absorb impacts without hurting the rider, turning radius per given speed, stopping distance.

in the context of this discussion , however, its more philosophical than physics.

anyone can realize a bikes top speed potential.
a lot of people can realize a bikes acceleration potential on pavement
some people can realize a bikes turning radius potential on pavement
fewer guys can realize the bikes turning radius potential on dirt
even fewer guys can realize the potential of a bikes ability to absorb bumps without hurting or upsetting the rider
almost no guys can realize the full potential of traction or acceleration on dirt.
now, start compounding those elements and it becomes exponentially difficult to be at all of those potentials all of the time.

I think only a few guys in the world can get near those limits on current factory hardware.

here's where this discussion losses it way though; when the threshold of "full potential" is raised, so does the average baseline.

new tech and more refined equipment can still make someone way faster, regardless as to where they are at in regards to reaching "full potential" of the current hardware.

i.e. a guy riding a 60's mx'er at 99% of its potential is still gonna get lapped by a guy riding a modern bike at %90 of its potential. that makes this whole discussion erroneous

I would like to argue that whatever the best guy in the world can do is the current "full potential"
You put into words the best example so far.

"potential means what is physically possible. Like the limits of traction, acceleration, the ability for the suspension to absorb impacts without hurting the rider, turning radius per given speed, stopping distance."

"I would like to argue that whatever the best guy in the world can do is the current "full potential"


This basically states that the racers and test riders determine the full potential of the bike, after all, they are what develops the current and future technology ...
Ryno23
Posts
693
Joined
1/13/2010
Location
Belgrade, MT US
Fantasy
779th
12/23/2013 5:57pm
I can tell you that any one of my 450's over the years haven't been the problem. It's always been the rider for me. So in a nutshell... yeah, I'm not riding them to their potential and I know it. Pinch
RealityZ
Posts
619
Joined
8/10/2010
Location
NY US
12/23/2013 6:06pm
Whatever the best guy in the world can do is "his full potential" not the "bikes full potential"
IWreckALot
Posts
8676
Joined
3/12/2011
Location
Fort Worth, TX US
12/23/2013 6:48pm
newmann wrote:
Think of Newmann on a bad ass fire breathing 74 CR250 giving it everything he has trying to pass his arch nemesis on a 250 Husky...
Think of Newmann on a bad ass fire breathing 74 CR250 giving it everything he has trying to pass his arch nemesis on a 250 Husky. About the time he thinks there is no way possible to make it happen, along comes Tom Benolkin on a 72 Penton 125 with 5 horsepower and six neutrals and passes us both in the same corner. Not only do you realize you aren't riding the bike to its potential, you realize you just might suck.
Mother fuckin Tom Benolkin and his six neutrals? That would just make me want to cut the race short, ride back to the truck and break out the 6 pack.

Post a reply to: Can't ride the bike to its full potential?

The Latest