Bike Setup

TDeath21
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TDeath21
Edited Date/Time 5/23/2016 3:50pm
Alright now maybe this is me being the dumb armchair rider that I am, but I don't understand how these riders who are on the same team and have ridden the same track previously struggle so much with bike setup. Supercross I understand. Those tracks change every year. Tomac I understand. New team. A rookie like Forkner I understand. First time on the track. But how in the hell could Jeremy Martin be struggling with his setup? Top team, top rider, 3rd time at the track, 3rd year on the team, 2 time champ. Makes no sense to me. It's not just him. This seems to happen to a lot of riders at every track. Could someone smarter than me explain how this happens? It's not a rare occurrence by any means.
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kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 5/22/2016 9:20am
5/22/2016 9:20am
There is a thread here that is beating this topic up!
UpTiTe
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UpTiTe 5/22/2016 9:32am
5/22/2016 9:32am
I was told that Jeremy gambled in the second moto and set it up for mud.


Another things teams had to deal with, the track prep was way different than most because of the rain, it wasn't ripped deep at all and turned into hard pack. When was the last time you saw a hard pack track on the AMA circuit ?
hillbilly
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hillbilly 5/23/2016 4:21am
5/23/2016 4:21am
UpTiTe wrote:
I was told that Jeremy gambled in the second moto and set it up for mud. Another things teams had to deal with, the track prep...
I was told that Jeremy gambled in the second moto and set it up for mud.


Another things teams had to deal with, the track prep was way different than most because of the rain, it wasn't ripped deep at all and turned into hard pack. When was the last time you saw a hard pack track on the AMA circuit ?
Probably read my posts, with the restart i would thrown on intermediate or hard track knobs.
resetjet
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resetjet 5/23/2016 6:06am
5/23/2016 6:06am
From my uneducated opinion bike setup at that level is like a triangle that you shoot at with a dart. The very top of the triangle being the best. Not only is bike setup a mechanical game, its a mental game. Same guy same bike same track same conditions and different day = different feelings. They are just splitting hairs. Top guys are within 10ths of a second on a whole lap.....so that little change that lets uou pick up 3/10th per lap is what they are looking for. Its like chasing a ghost. They may have the best setup possible, but if they dont think they do it leads to frustration and poorer results.

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JW381
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JW381 5/23/2016 6:36am
5/23/2016 6:36am
resetjet wrote:
From my uneducated opinion bike setup at that level is like a triangle that you shoot at with a dart. The very top of the triangle...
From my uneducated opinion bike setup at that level is like a triangle that you shoot at with a dart. The very top of the triangle being the best. Not only is bike setup a mechanical game, its a mental game. Same guy same bike same track same conditions and different day = different feelings. They are just splitting hairs. Top guys are within 10ths of a second on a whole lap.....so that little change that lets uou pick up 3/10th per lap is what they are looking for. Its like chasing a ghost. They may have the best setup possible, but if they dont think they do it leads to frustration and poorer results.
Yup, this is how I understand it too. I do think a little mentality change could go along ways. I'm not sure if any of the team managers have ever told a rider to just ride the bike and not focus on the mystical perfect setup, but it seems like it could be a little beneficial. Rather than constantly tweaking and dealing with an ever changing setup.

But, of course, I am not a factory rider and have absolutely zero clue what it's like at that level.
MxKing809
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MxKing809 5/23/2016 6:41am
5/23/2016 6:41am
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no matter what you say. I have it from the most reliable source possible that exact thing happened to a rider, because the suspension dyno/calculations/past settings were taken as gospel regardless if it's what he perferred or not.
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 5/23/2016 7:04am
5/23/2016 7:04am
MxKing809 wrote:
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no...
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no matter what you say. I have it from the most reliable source possible that exact thing happened to a rider, because the suspension dyno/calculations/past settings were taken as gospel regardless if it's what he perferred or not.
Man I would prefer to be a suspension mechanic for that team.

Many pros work the suspension guys to death
Phillip_Lamb
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Phillip_Lamb 5/23/2016 12:17pm
5/23/2016 12:17pm
sometimes what the rider is given can be way off from what they feel comfortable on. maybe a spring maybe a few shims, and if your off enough it can make you go backwards really easy. ive had a bike handle like crap out at hangtown and second moto all i did was slow the rebound 2 clicks...2 clicks and it was night and day.

but i would think teams would save the information for setups so as to make testing easier assuming its a return rider.
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 5/23/2016 12:29pm
5/23/2016 12:29pm
resetjet wrote:
From my uneducated opinion bike setup at that level is like a triangle that you shoot at with a dart. The very top of the triangle...
From my uneducated opinion bike setup at that level is like a triangle that you shoot at with a dart. The very top of the triangle being the best. Not only is bike setup a mechanical game, its a mental game. Same guy same bike same track same conditions and different day = different feelings. They are just splitting hairs. Top guys are within 10ths of a second on a whole lap.....so that little change that lets uou pick up 3/10th per lap is what they are looking for. Its like chasing a ghost. They may have the best setup possible, but if they dont think they do it leads to frustration and poorer results.
JW381 wrote:
Yup, this is how I understand it too. I do think a little mentality change could go along ways. I'm not sure if any of the...
Yup, this is how I understand it too. I do think a little mentality change could go along ways. I'm not sure if any of the team managers have ever told a rider to just ride the bike and not focus on the mystical perfect setup, but it seems like it could be a little beneficial. Rather than constantly tweaking and dealing with an ever changing setup.

But, of course, I am not a factory rider and have absolutely zero clue what it's like at that level.
I (a slow 30 year old) can't tell you what my bike is doing at any specific time. I've just learned to ride it the way it is. If I bottom a lot, I stiffen it up, if it's pushing a lot, I'll try softening or hardening it. But it's just a guess. I have however stumbled across a few things that have made life a lot easier in a few sections. So if the rider can figure out what the bike is doing, and communicate that accurately to the team, and the team can adjust, then great, but when they adjust, another part of the track may be way off. So to me, that always seems to be a wash. But if there's something they can do to help with a few tenths of a second per lap like reset said, I can see why they make such a big deal bout it.
EEE299
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EEE299 5/23/2016 12:29pm
5/23/2016 12:29pm
I think a lot of riders just keep changing and changing not giving themselves enough of a known base to work off of. Then there's riders like RV. He said in a interview I saw on here the other day, that he would look for changes then if they didn't work or couldn't find what he wanted, say f*ck it and go race.
JW381
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JW381 5/23/2016 12:29pm
5/23/2016 12:29pm
MxKing809 wrote:
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no...
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no matter what you say. I have it from the most reliable source possible that exact thing happened to a rider, because the suspension dyno/calculations/past settings were taken as gospel regardless if it's what he perferred or not.
I've heard this exact same thing from a pretty knowledgeable source.
hillbilly
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hillbilly 5/23/2016 12:33pm
5/23/2016 12:33pm
They had past track conditions on their mind. Bigger whoops meaning longer frequency into and out of corners.

This requires more oil restriction for slower shaft speed

Hard pack like it was is shorter frequency or choppy square edge.

This requires faster shaft speed to keep the bike hooked driving out.

MxKing809
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MxKing809 5/23/2016 2:10pm
5/23/2016 2:10pm
MxKing809 wrote:
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no...
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no matter what you say. I have it from the most reliable source possible that exact thing happened to a rider, because the suspension dyno/calculations/past settings were taken as gospel regardless if it's what he perferred or not.
JW381 wrote:
I've heard this exact same thing from a pretty knowledgeable source.
Two geniuses on different coasts hear the same thing?

STAMP IT!
aFACEdismembered 5/23/2016 3:14pm
5/23/2016 3:14pm
"I shouldn't be finishing where I am" seems to equate to "setup issues." No one can just get beat anymore. Savatgy will not go 1-1 for the remainder of the season and it won't be because of a bad setup somewhere.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/23/2016 3:16pm
5/23/2016 3:16pm
resetjet wrote:
From my uneducated opinion bike setup at that level is like a triangle that you shoot at with a dart. The very top of the triangle...
From my uneducated opinion bike setup at that level is like a triangle that you shoot at with a dart. The very top of the triangle being the best. Not only is bike setup a mechanical game, its a mental game. Same guy same bike same track same conditions and different day = different feelings. They are just splitting hairs. Top guys are within 10ths of a second on a whole lap.....so that little change that lets uou pick up 3/10th per lap is what they are looking for. Its like chasing a ghost. They may have the best setup possible, but if they dont think they do it leads to frustration and poorer results.
JW381 wrote:
Yup, this is how I understand it too. I do think a little mentality change could go along ways. I'm not sure if any of the...
Yup, this is how I understand it too. I do think a little mentality change could go along ways. I'm not sure if any of the team managers have ever told a rider to just ride the bike and not focus on the mystical perfect setup, but it seems like it could be a little beneficial. Rather than constantly tweaking and dealing with an ever changing setup.

But, of course, I am not a factory rider and have absolutely zero clue what it's like at that level.
Which is why RD is at the top of his game, mentally he doesn't let a little bike setup not impact his performance
Underground 5/23/2016 3:42pm
5/23/2016 3:42pm
MxKing809 wrote:
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no...
Or you could be on a top 250 team with green bikes and be TOLD that you will be running this valving and spring setup no matter what you say. I have it from the most reliable source possible that exact thing happened to a rider, because the suspension dyno/calculations/past settings were taken as gospel regardless if it's what he perferred or not.
JW381 wrote:
I've heard this exact same thing from a pretty knowledgeable source.
MxKing809 wrote:
Two geniuses on different coasts hear the same thing?

STAMP IT!
Some riders haven't got a clue to setting up bikes either, and will have the team chasing their tail. These technicians aren't stupid or new to the game so in the end will tell a useless test rider what they are going to run. Using a bit of technical spin will always help the medicine go down.
It's another reason why some guys who aren't battling for wins have top rides. Because they can give good honest feedback and will do the majority of the testing to earn their keep and help the team perform at their best.
Underground 5/23/2016 3:50pm
5/23/2016 3:50pm
Phillip_Lamb wrote:
sometimes what the rider is given can be way off from what they feel comfortable on. maybe a spring maybe a few shims, and if your...
sometimes what the rider is given can be way off from what they feel comfortable on. maybe a spring maybe a few shims, and if your off enough it can make you go backwards really easy. ive had a bike handle like crap out at hangtown and second moto all i did was slow the rebound 2 clicks...2 clicks and it was night and day.

but i would think teams would save the information for setups so as to make testing easier assuming its a return rider.
This ^^^^^^^ I've seen it many times. An experienced tuner with a good eye can spot it and a couple of clicks can calm the bike a lot and help the riders mental side tremendously to allow them to push it that bit harder into a corner or down the straight. But sometimes ego gets in the way and the rider will want to sound like they know what's best.

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