Benoit on two stroke

h&m_cycle
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6/26/2015 3:55pm
Dirt track Kart Racing same damn thing...
Sink a shit load of money in a Briggs & Statton 4 cycle, alcohol & everything else
Instead of running a ported Yamaha KT100 2 cycle Kart Motor ...



BobPA
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6/26/2015 3:59pm
What's odd is one of the latest DeCoster interviews he mentions their 250F making 52HP! That's more than a stock 250SX makes, and it certainly does...
What's odd is one of the latest DeCoster interviews he mentions their 250F making 52HP! That's more than a stock 250SX makes, and it certainly does it over a much broader powerband, with more traction, having a higher rev limit, and less tiring over a 35 min moto.

Good on Benoit, btw!!


Love the idea of a "factory edition" 250SX. That would rock!
nytsmaC wrote:
I wonder how much torque a factory 250F makes though? A stock 250SX makes low 30's, a 250F low 20's.. All things considered, I'd think that...
I wonder how much torque a factory 250F makes though? A stock 250SX makes low 30's, a 250F low 20's..

All things considered, I'd think that a fully modified 250F engine is fairly competitive with a stock 250 2-stroke..

Someone remind me again how 250F's are good for the sport?

Cons:
Heavy
Expensive
Unreliable
Slow
Loud
Disposable

Pros:
Easier to ride
???
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable"

Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f?

They are not slow compared to a 125 that they were designed to compete against.

My 125 required more maintenance then my 250f.and blew up many more times...

I think you 2 stroke nuts just read each other's common misconceptions off the internet and claim them to be true.
nytsmaC
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6/26/2015 4:07pm
What's odd is one of the latest DeCoster interviews he mentions their 250F making 52HP! That's more than a stock 250SX makes, and it certainly does...
What's odd is one of the latest DeCoster interviews he mentions their 250F making 52HP! That's more than a stock 250SX makes, and it certainly does it over a much broader powerband, with more traction, having a higher rev limit, and less tiring over a 35 min moto.

Good on Benoit, btw!!


Love the idea of a "factory edition" 250SX. That would rock!
nytsmaC wrote:
I wonder how much torque a factory 250F makes though? A stock 250SX makes low 30's, a 250F low 20's.. All things considered, I'd think that...
I wonder how much torque a factory 250F makes though? A stock 250SX makes low 30's, a 250F low 20's..

All things considered, I'd think that a fully modified 250F engine is fairly competitive with a stock 250 2-stroke..

Someone remind me again how 250F's are good for the sport?

Cons:
Heavy
Expensive
Unreliable
Slow
Loud
Disposable

Pros:
Easier to ride
???
BobPA wrote:
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable" Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f? They are not slow compared to a 125 that...
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable"

Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f?

They are not slow compared to a 125 that they were designed to compete against.

My 125 required more maintenance then my 250f.and blew up many more times...

I think you 2 stroke nuts just read each other's common misconceptions off the internet and claim them to be true.
Comparing them to a 125 is really irrelevant at this point, isn't it?

I'd think that the use "slow" and "unreliable" are more than fair. Compared to a 250 2-stroke a stock 250F is slow, and modified to try to compete they are unreliable.

I've ridden a 250F but never owned one. I already own a slow bike, it's a 144 2-stroke and it weighs under 200lbs, like a slow bike should.
JBernard_401
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6/26/2015 4:12pm
BobPA wrote:
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable" Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f? They are not slow compared to a 125 that...
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable"

Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f?

They are not slow compared to a 125 that they were designed to compete against.

My 125 required more maintenance then my 250f.and blew up many more times...

I think you 2 stroke nuts just read each other's common misconceptions off the internet and claim them to be true.
what do you do when you blow up a 5 year old 250f engine? say bikes worth 2500$, youre going to sink more than half the value of the bike into the repairs?

The Shop

Cygnus
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6/26/2015 4:15pm
BobPA wrote:
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable" Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f? They are not slow compared to a 125 that...
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable"

Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f?

They are not slow compared to a 125 that they were designed to compete against.

My 125 required more maintenance then my 250f.and blew up many more times...

I think you 2 stroke nuts just read each other's common misconceptions off the internet and claim them to be true.
what do you do when you blow up a 5 year old 250f engine? say bikes worth 2500$, youre going to sink more than half the...
what do you do when you blow up a 5 year old 250f engine? say bikes worth 2500$, youre going to sink more than half the value of the bike into the repairs?
Part it out. Back in the two stroke days most guys would trade bike every two years because thy were so sacked out and loose it wasn't worth it to freshen them up. So 5 years out of a new bike is 2.5 times the life expectancy.
JBernard_401
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6/26/2015 4:21pm
none of my buddies ever did that? sure, had some guys with $ wanting thew newest bike every year, but i dont recall many getting a new bike every couple years cause theirs were beat on. and if thats the case, that doesnt pertain to the engine as much as chassis, broken/worn parts, ect.

bringing up the 4T lifespan is still valid. when you have an engine that looks like a f'kin grandfather clock inside, im sure you want to get your use out of it then sell it ASAP to some unlucky person who will take the damage on it. why? because it cost more to repair than the bike is worth half of the time on a used bike.
BobPA
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6/26/2015 4:37pm
nytsmaC wrote:
I wonder how much torque a factory 250F makes though? A stock 250SX makes low 30's, a 250F low 20's.. All things considered, I'd think that...
I wonder how much torque a factory 250F makes though? A stock 250SX makes low 30's, a 250F low 20's..

All things considered, I'd think that a fully modified 250F engine is fairly competitive with a stock 250 2-stroke..

Someone remind me again how 250F's are good for the sport?

Cons:
Heavy
Expensive
Unreliable
Slow
Loud
Disposable

Pros:
Easier to ride
???
BobPA wrote:
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable" Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f? They are not slow compared to a 125 that...
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable"

Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f?

They are not slow compared to a 125 that they were designed to compete against.

My 125 required more maintenance then my 250f.and blew up many more times...

I think you 2 stroke nuts just read each other's common misconceptions off the internet and claim them to be true.
nytsmaC wrote:
Comparing them to a 125 is really irrelevant at this point, isn't it? I'd think that the use "slow" and "unreliable" are more than fair. Compared...
Comparing them to a 125 is really irrelevant at this point, isn't it?

I'd think that the use "slow" and "unreliable" are more than fair. Compared to a 250 2-stroke a stock 250F is slow, and modified to try to compete they are unreliable.

I've ridden a 250F but never owned one. I already own a slow bike, it's a 144 2-stroke and it weighs under 200lbs, like a slow bike should.
Why is it irrelevant? That is what they were designed to compete against.

250 two strokes are slow compared to 450's, so I do not see where you are coming from? 250f's were not designed to compete against 250 two strokes...But I bet most of the guys on here would have faster and more consistent lap times on a 250f.

BobPA
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6/26/2015 4:39pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2015 4:40pm
BobPA wrote:
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable" Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f? They are not slow compared to a 125 that...
I do not agree at all with the "slow" and "unreliable"

Have you ever ridden/owned a 250f?

They are not slow compared to a 125 that they were designed to compete against.

My 125 required more maintenance then my 250f.and blew up many more times...

I think you 2 stroke nuts just read each other's common misconceptions off the internet and claim them to be true.
what do you do when you blow up a 5 year old 250f engine? say bikes worth 2500$, youre going to sink more than half the...
what do you do when you blow up a 5 year old 250f engine? say bikes worth 2500$, youre going to sink more than half the value of the bike into the repairs?
You fix it and ride it? What happens when you blow up a 10 year old 2 stroke? Cylinder plating, piston, gaskets, crank = a lot of money for an old smoker.
JBernard_401
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6/26/2015 4:44pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2015 4:47pm
BobPA wrote:
You fix it and ride it? What happens when you blow up a 10 year old 2 stroke? Cylinder plating, piston, gaskets, crank = a lot...
You fix it and ride it? What happens when you blow up a 10 year old 2 stroke? Cylinder plating, piston, gaskets, crank = a lot of money for an old smoker.
want to bet 9/10 times the 4T is way more $ to fix?
want some proof? get on craigslist and look at parted out bikes for sale.
thats the nature of the beast dealing with cams, valves, and 500 other parts a 2T doesnt have.
BobPA
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6/26/2015 4:55pm
BobPA wrote:
You fix it and ride it? What happens when you blow up a 10 year old 2 stroke? Cylinder plating, piston, gaskets, crank = a lot...
You fix it and ride it? What happens when you blow up a 10 year old 2 stroke? Cylinder plating, piston, gaskets, crank = a lot of money for an old smoker.
want to bet 9/10 times the 4T is way more $ to fix? want some proof? get on craigslist and look at parted out bikes for...
want to bet 9/10 times the 4T is way more $ to fix?
want some proof? get on craigslist and look at parted out bikes for sale.
thats the nature of the beast dealing with cams, valves, and 500 other parts a 2T doesnt have.
Spoken like someone who has never owned/raced/maintained a modern 4 stroke
h&m_cycle
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6/26/2015 4:56pm
These threads go nowhere, 4 strokes are better for beginners. "Some People" just don't have the skills to
operate a "2 stroke other then a chainsaw or weedeater...

Cygnus
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6/26/2015 4:57pm
If there are so many of these 250f's parting out find me an 08 or up crf. I want to do a project that I use an oler cr125 engine into one. I searched for 2-3 month this spring and couldn't find one. Anyone know of a roller send me info.
JBernard_401
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6/26/2015 5:00pm
BobPA wrote:
Spoken like someone who has never owned/raced/maintained a modern 4 stroke
never had the desire too. ridden quite a few though.slow, boring as shit, and felt like i was riding a couch it was so heavy.
2 friends 4T bikes down right now due to not having funds to fix them. i however, put a brand new 300 SXS complete top end on my bike for 600$ in less than 3hrs.
Slosh 112
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6/26/2015 5:11pm
I think you guys are missing the point. You can Race 250 2t's against 250F's in the MX2 class here in Aus, the whole point of the exercise (at least in Australia) was to lower the cost of racing to invite more privateers to the national series, with only two Proper factory teams in MX2 here (Serco Yamaha and the Honda team) & no massive privately owned teams, racing a 250F at a national level has become extremely expensive, so to lower the cost and boost rider numbers Motorcycling Australia changed the rules to allow two stroke 250's to race in the lites class, it worked & entries increased. I'm sure I read in a magazine here that Two stroke 250's must remain stock from the Intake port to the Exhaust port, You can fit aftermarket reed cages and exhausts but no porting or machining etc, not sure if you can swap carbys out (36mm to 38mm on KTM's is a popular mod)

Now obviously if you get two stock bikes one 250f and one 250 2T, in the power stakes a 250 2T will win all day. If you tip a Bullshit amount of money into both engines you'll get the same result, I'm not sure how much power a factory team 250f puts out but I'm sure it would be over 45hp, so by keeping the 250 2T stock it levels the playing field for privateers as no factory backed team is going to race two strokes when all they want to do is sell parts hungry four strokes. I'd imagine that the organisers of the Canadian national series wanted to do something similar with reducing the cost of racing for privateers and boosting rider entries.

And for the record since the rule came out it hasn't been a whitewash of two strokes & the majority of riders still front up with 250F's. Kale makehame finished the championship in 2nd in 2013 on a KTM 250SX and now has a Factory Suzuki ride this year on an RMZ450.
Slosh 112
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6/26/2015 5:40pm
Kale Makeham 2 on a privateer 250SX battling with Luke Clout 4 on a factory YZ250F.


allenb27
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6/26/2015 6:43pm
I hereby call this meeting of the 2 stroke circle jerk club to order. If there is no new business, I motion that we all go back to tweaking our nips to pics in the kick ass 2 stroke thread.

Yall 2 stroke guys are nuts. You complain about the Japanese manufacturers forcing their 4 stroke agenda down your throats but you do the same thing in here. Should I buy a 2007 or 2009 yz450f? Neither, get a 2003 yz250. Are 6D helmets good? Yes and thanks to Honda helmets are more innovative than 2 strokes. Give it a rest, guys.

You're amateurs and are more than welcome to take your 2t 250 all the way to Lorettas in the 250 class. I don't see a problem with the current pro rules and I don't see why you do considering all the holies you rip and 450s you destroy on your smoker.
PEPE001
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6/26/2015 10:10pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2015 10:13pm
BobPA wrote:
Why is it irrelevant? That is what they were designed to compete against. 250 two strokes are slow compared to 450's, so I do not see...
Why is it irrelevant? That is what they were designed to compete against.

250 two strokes are slow compared to 450's, so I do not see where you are coming from? 250f's were not designed to compete against 250 two strokes...But I bet most of the guys on here would have faster and more consistent lap times on a 250f.

BObPA: 250f's were not designed to compete against 250 two strokes...

That's what's the rulebook is trying to tell you.
"No 250f against 250 smoker." But that's what the industry wants and maybe not most of the Amateurs.

That's a stupid rule from medieval time, just to be sure 4 stroke look good or even par.

Lets think about it for a while:
You can spend as much money as you want to get your lawn mower up to speed.
But the chain saw should be bone stock.
Question is why?

I had both and currently I am running a 250 smoker:
If I still would be in racing I would go for the smoker no question.
For me it is a joke that a 97 KX250 has better handling than a 2011 CRF250R.
The CRF suspension is way better but the handling is not even close.

Maintenance:
A 250f and a 250 smoker needs maybe the same maintenance in case of parts. (Piston, Crank and so on)
The 250f need way more oil to be sure not risking your engine.
Every week about 15-20$ just Oil and Filter.
At the same time I spend about 10$ a week for 2 stroke Oil

A 250f is way more work and if the engine is blown a new bike might be the better option.
I bought 2 250f with blown engines conrod broke and went through the case.
Each engine at least 2000$ just the repair!

The same damage on a smoker is about 1000$ with cases.

For racing budged the smoker is the better option, for weekend warrior riding in the woods maybe the 4 stroke.
The 4 stroke is easier to ride and you get lazy.

But if you have no idea how to fix a engine this advantage is gone again.
I see a lot of riders with beat up bikes and it is just a question of time that those bikes are ending up at CL for less than 1000$ with a blown engine. Like the 2 I bought and both where from 2011.


To me it doesn't matter everybody should ride what he wants,
The entire discussion 4 Stroke or 2 stroke is useless!

Why?
Because 90% of the riders cant use the full potential of the bike anyway!
No matter if it is 2 or 4 stroke!


PEPE001
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6/26/2015 10:25pm
Cygnus wrote:
If there are so many of these 250f's parting out find me an 08 or up crf. I want to do a project that I use...
If there are so many of these 250f's parting out find me an 08 or up crf. I want to do a project that I use an oler cr125 engine into one. I searched for 2-3 month this spring and couldn't find one. Anyone know of a roller send me info.
Bought a CRF250R 2011 and a KXF250 2011 for 1000 each on CL. Tongue

Rebuild the CRF and sold it with nice profit.
The KXF will be ready soon.
Both bike will fund my other bikes. Cool

Working on a AF KX144 Woohoo
Nice fit to my KX250.

You can find them on CL from time to time but you have to be fast.
Usually they are gone the same day.

I rode from ATL to FL to get those bikes.
But it was worth it both had great suspension and where in good shape except the engine.

If you want to spend around 1000$ you can buy a rolling chassis as single parts at ebay.
Might take a while to find the good offers but will work.
Did that for my KX144 project base KXF2010.
Spend a little more than 1000$ but got a nice fork.



October - April is a good time to look, right now used parts are to expensive.
jeffro503
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6/26/2015 11:31pm
newmann wrote:
No doubt some of these privateer efforts that peter out mid season could probably stand a better chance to make it through the season. 250 class...
No doubt some of these privateer efforts that peter out mid season could probably stand a better chance to make it through the season. 250 class is a tough one financially.
IceMan446 wrote:
Except, they would be racing 450s.

No one is going to win on a 250 two stroke in the US series.

newmann wrote:
Either you didn't read the two previous posts or you quoted the wrong post.Huh Why would someone ride a 450 in the 250 class?
I'm not sure exactly what he;'s trying o say , but it's bullshit. If Benoit is still winning on a stock 250 2 stroke , there is no reason in hell Marvin wouldn't be winning on one here in the states. Christ go watch Marv tear it up on that 150 SX on you tube. Your mind will be blown!

CC to CC the 2 strokes still have the upper hand in power and weight. No matter what anyone says , the 2 stroke is still a superior motor. Yes , the 4 strokes are THEE bike to own if you want to race. It's what the factories support. It's what they want you to buy. The cost a shit ton more in a race season and by all means , slap $40,000 into one and watch it get smoked by a bone stock $7000.00 2 stroke.

The big 4 have brain washed some peoples minds so much now days it's crazy.
Slosh 112
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6/26/2015 11:32pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2015 11:33pm
If you were a privateer with national level skill and say 30 grand to race for a season what would you buy if the rules permitted a 250 2t in the lites class?
IceMan446
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6/26/2015 11:49pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what he;'s trying o say , but it's bullshit. If Benoit is still winning on a stock 250 2 stroke , there...
I'm not sure exactly what he;'s trying o say , but it's bullshit. If Benoit is still winning on a stock 250 2 stroke , there is no reason in hell Marvin wouldn't be winning on one here in the states. Christ go watch Marv tear it up on that 150 SX on you tube. Your mind will be blown!

CC to CC the 2 strokes still have the upper hand in power and weight. No matter what anyone says , the 2 stroke is still a superior motor. Yes , the 4 strokes are THEE bike to own if you want to race. It's what the factories support. It's what they want you to buy. The cost a shit ton more in a race season and by all means , slap $40,000 into one and watch it get smoked by a bone stock $7000.00 2 stroke.

The big 4 have brain washed some peoples minds so much now days it's crazy.
Bullshit???

Marvin wouldn't be racing 250s in the 250 class, so keep trying.

They aren't allowed to, so why keep throwing it out there as "what if's" about CC vs. CC because thats not what is allowed.

Rules are rules, right???

Im not saying its not a better bike to ride against other 250 four strokes (its is better), but in the US series its a non issue.

And against 450's, you would be a fool to think ANYONE could win on one at the national level. Marvin included.



IceMan446
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6/26/2015 11:54pm


BTW...this is what is in my garage. I love two strokes, but they won't race at the national level with any success ever again.

Enjoy those years JS7 was trying to beat the GOAT on one.
hammertime
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6/27/2015 12:47am
This is the Canadian nationals...in the chump class!! He's the best rider...and at this level the bike doesn't matter!! This whole "2smoker" circle jerk circus is just another wasted thread! The guys he's racing couldn't crack 20th in a real race with real racers on real bikes! It just doesn't fucking matter...
Fearo
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6/27/2015 1:15am Edited Date/Time 6/27/2015 1:16am
What blows my mind is how anyone on a Yamaha or KTM in that MX2 class chooses to ride a 250F over a 250 2-stroke??? Unless they are forced to?

+5 to 10HP, -20lbs...

seth505
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Fantasy
1092nd
6/27/2015 1:32am
jeffro503 wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what he;'s trying o say , but it's bullshit. If Benoit is still winning on a stock 250 2 stroke , there...
I'm not sure exactly what he;'s trying o say , but it's bullshit. If Benoit is still winning on a stock 250 2 stroke , there is no reason in hell Marvin wouldn't be winning on one here in the states. Christ go watch Marv tear it up on that 150 SX on you tube. Your mind will be blown!

CC to CC the 2 strokes still have the upper hand in power and weight. No matter what anyone says , the 2 stroke is still a superior motor. Yes , the 4 strokes are THEE bike to own if you want to race. It's what the factories support. It's what they want you to buy. The cost a shit ton more in a race season and by all means , slap $40,000 into one and watch it get smoked by a bone stock $7000.00 2 stroke.

The big 4 have brain washed some peoples minds so much now days it's crazy.
IceMan446 wrote:
Bullshit??? Marvin wouldn't be racing 250s in the 250 class, so keep trying. They aren't allowed to, so why keep throwing it out there as "what...
Bullshit???

Marvin wouldn't be racing 250s in the 250 class, so keep trying.

They aren't allowed to, so why keep throwing it out there as "what if's" about CC vs. CC because thats not what is allowed.

Rules are rules, right???

Im not saying its not a better bike to ride against other 250 four strokes (its is better), but in the US series its a non issue.

And against 450's, you would be a fool to think ANYONE could win on one at the national level. Marvin included.



...BECAUSE of how the rules are written. That's the bottom line.
cwtoyota
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6/27/2015 1:41am
IceMan446 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/06/26/95913/s1200_IMG_0067.jpg[/img] BTW...this is what is in my garage. I love two strokes, but they won't race at the national level with any success ever again. Enjoy...


BTW...this is what is in my garage. I love two strokes, but they won't race at the national level with any success ever again.

Enjoy those years JS7 was trying to beat the GOAT on one.
I'm with you. I have two YZ250 and one YZ125 (just sold my other YZ125)... I've never owned a four stroke, but have ridden and raced them plenty of times. I've ridden the four strokes 250/450 enough to know they are easier to ride at a faster pace for a longer time than a 250cc two-stroke.

Ultimately, I can't wait for the day that 250 two-strokes are allowed to race the 250cc class at the professional level. The 250F will not disappear overnight and the sport will not implode. Some privateers and a few odd team-riders will choose the 250 two stroke and it will make the sport more interesting by adding another dynamic to the racing action.

I think Canada and Australia are closer to perfecting the formula of engine rules than we are in the USA... I sure hope the people who make decisions in our series are considering the "data" coming from those two countries and planning to make the right changes when it is prudent.
steed 2.0
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6/27/2015 1:56am
Fearo wrote:
What blows my mind is how anyone on a Yamaha or KTM in that MX2 class chooses to ride a 250F over a 250 2-stroke??? Unless...
What blows my mind is how anyone on a Yamaha or KTM in that MX2 class chooses to ride a 250F over a 250 2-stroke??? Unless they are forced to?

+5 to 10HP, -20lbs...

Because 4 strokes are easier to ride especially on hardpack, suck it you Bin Laden's all 2 strokes SmileWink

btw, I own both so search for someone else to argue with Two Stroke Taliban
Fearo
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6/27/2015 6:08am
Fearo wrote:
What blows my mind is how anyone on a Yamaha or KTM in that MX2 class chooses to ride a 250F over a 250 2-stroke??? Unless...
What blows my mind is how anyone on a Yamaha or KTM in that MX2 class chooses to ride a 250F over a 250 2-stroke??? Unless they are forced to?

+5 to 10HP, -20lbs...

steed 2.0 wrote:
Because 4 strokes are easier to ride especially on hardpack, suck it you Bin Laden's all 2 strokes :) ;) btw, I own both so search...
Because 4 strokes are easier to ride especially on hardpack, suck it you Bin Laden's all 2 strokes SmileWink

btw, I own both so search for someone else to argue with Two Stroke Taliban
Ahhh yes, the 'easier to ride' comment.. Another one of life's inexplicable conundrums.

Please tell me, dear sir, why a professional motocross racer would want a bike that is easier to ride?

I wonder if the 250F riders in that class are like "man, this bike sure is easy to ride!" while Kaven Benoit blows by them on his 51HP razorblade?
machine
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6/27/2015 6:12am
mxracer239 wrote:
It might get very interesting if the 250 2 strokes cld race in the nationals in the 250 class
newmann wrote:
No doubt some of these privateer efforts that peter out mid season could probably stand a better chance to make it through the season. 250 class...
No doubt some of these privateer efforts that peter out mid season could probably stand a better chance to make it through the season. 250 class is a tough one financially.
I agree..It's dumb to not let the 250 2 strokes not compete against 250 4's. With the power the 250 4's are putting out now, it's dead even with the traction disadvantage 2 strokes have.

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