Back to steel frame?

racingfortheson
Edited Date/Time 5/6/2015 2:57am
Do you think any Japanese bikes will ever go back to steel frames? and why or why not?
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SoCalMX70
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SoCalMX70 5/4/2015 10:22pm
5/4/2015 10:22pm
racingfortheson wrote:
Do you think any Japanese bikes will ever go back to steel frames? and why or why not?
No... because no.

Well, a lot of reasons... but my personal favorite is probably that they are stubborn as hell. They won't go backward. KTM could win the next 5 championships on steel frames and the Japanese won't even consider changing frame materials.
JB 19
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JB 19 5/4/2015 10:38pm
5/4/2015 10:38pm
The Japanese have been known to be so prideful that they will continue to do something wrong rather than admit a mistake. So even if steel is proven to be better, it ain't gonna happen.

Same reason we haven't saw electric start on Japanese race bikes. The new KTM proves it can be done and still be light and not affect handling, but Japan has turned a blind eye. Sales may force their hand though.

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ML512
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ML512 5/4/2015 10:58pm
5/4/2015 10:58pm
racingfortheson wrote:
Is the steel frame why KTM can get the bikes so lite?
KTM uses chromoly steel.
Aceofspades 5/4/2015 11:05pm
5/4/2015 11:05pm Edited Date/Time 5/4/2015 11:07pm
Id wager that the reason the jap bikes use aluminum is because its cheaper, rather than anything to do with magical stiffness calculations. KTM proves that steel is fine, and id think that anything KTM uses has been researched by the jap manufacturers years longer than ktm. Theres a bean counter behind the move to aluminum; once one of them went aluminum, market pressure meant they all would. KTM being european means they arent beholden to the pressure of japanese business/cultural one-upsmanship. In my opinion.
Aceofspades 5/4/2015 11:11pm
5/4/2015 11:11pm
Funny aside: i have an issue of mxa from 93 and theyre rating a set of devol aluminum frame protectors; the review starts out by stating "There will never be an aluminum-framed mx bike for the buying public- these frame protectors are as close as we will get" lol.
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scott_nz 5/4/2015 11:21pm
5/4/2015 11:21pm
Aceofspades wrote:
Id wager that the reason the jap bikes use aluminum is because its cheaper, rather than anything to do with magical stiffness calculations. KTM proves that...
Id wager that the reason the jap bikes use aluminum is because its cheaper, rather than anything to do with magical stiffness calculations. KTM proves that steel is fine, and id think that anything KTM uses has been researched by the jap manufacturers years longer than ktm. Theres a bean counter behind the move to aluminum; once one of them went aluminum, market pressure meant they all would. KTM being european means they arent beholden to the pressure of japanese business/cultural one-upsmanship. In my opinion.
some of what you say makes sense, i think when building in bulk number alloy can be cheaper,

but also KTM are not tooled up to produce alloy frames, they don't have road bikes with them either, where all the Japanese brands do, it would be a massive expense to tool up the production lines to build relatively small numbers of alloy frames,

there are some advantages to alloy frames, and also some downsides,

Kawasaki has just produced its first high performance road bike with a steel frame for over 20 years, so maybe they are not as stuck in their ways as everybody thinks,

Aceofspades 5/4/2015 11:37pm
5/4/2015 11:37pm
scott_nz wrote:
some of what you say makes sense, i think when building in bulk number alloy can be cheaper, but also KTM are not tooled up to...
some of what you say makes sense, i think when building in bulk number alloy can be cheaper,

but also KTM are not tooled up to produce alloy frames, they don't have road bikes with them either, where all the Japanese brands do, it would be a massive expense to tool up the production lines to build relatively small numbers of alloy frames,

there are some advantages to alloy frames, and also some downsides,

Kawasaki has just produced its first high performance road bike with a steel frame for over 20 years, so maybe they are not as stuck in their ways as everybody thinks,

Yeah, im just speculating. I hate the way aluminum frames look though. When i first got back into mx in 2010 after being out of the loop for 20 years, it took me a long time to be able to differentiate between different brands except ktm because to me every bike looked the same. Just a big ugly frame slab with stupid angular plastic and pointy edges. Theres no character in bikes anymore in my opinion. From '87-2000 each brand had unique and beautiful designs for the most part; not anymore. Bikes lost their beauty (to my eyes) around the same time they picked up those two extra strokes.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 5/5/2015 2:06am
5/5/2015 2:06am
Given KTM doesnt win everything, then I would say Aluminium frames arent as bad as they are made out. The best handling bike 450 or 250 bike is not a KTM.
ocscottie
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ocscottie 5/5/2015 2:26am
5/5/2015 2:26am
If i recall correctly, isnt an alumi frame also much cheaper to manufacturer? Could of sworn i recently read that somewhere?
Seamorbutts
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Seamorbutts 5/5/2015 2:44am
5/5/2015 2:44am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2015 3:04am
When I was still riding I rode a old 2004 YZ450 after being on the new aluminum frame for a few years. I can see how It would help A LOT with the flex/feel/traction on a modern bike. All I can say Is I think they went the wrong way.
GeorgiePorgie 5/5/2015 3:01am
5/5/2015 3:01am
JB 19 wrote:
The Japanese have been known to be so prideful that they will continue to do something wrong rather than admit a mistake. So even if steel...
The Japanese have been known to be so prideful that they will continue to do something wrong rather than admit a mistake. So even if steel is proven to be better, it ain't gonna happen.

Same reason we haven't saw electric start on Japanese race bikes. The new KTM proves it can be done and still be light and not affect handling, but Japan has turned a blind eye. Sales may force their hand though.
Yamaha is exploring the electric start idea. Check out the 250 fx
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Markee 5/5/2015 5:30am
5/5/2015 5:30am
Creating lightweight castings that can be machined at a lower cost is where the advantage is for production. The aluminum skips a step as well needing no coating to protect the finish. I have always assumed the frames were heat treated or normalized after welding, just because higher end bicycle frames are, but I don't know.

Aceofspades 5/5/2015 5:49am
5/5/2015 5:49am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2015 5:50am
Markee wrote:
Creating lightweight castings that can be machined at a lower cost is where the advantage is for production. The aluminum skips a step as well needing...
Creating lightweight castings that can be machined at a lower cost is where the advantage is for production. The aluminum skips a step as well needing no coating to protect the finish. I have always assumed the frames were heat treated or normalized after welding, just because higher end bicycle frames are, but I don't know.

Bingo! Saves money on paint! Id seriously bet they save a ton not painting those frames, which is just gravy on top of all those other points u listed.
overthebars39 5/5/2015 5:53am
5/5/2015 5:53am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2015 5:59am
kiwifan wrote:
Given KTM doesnt win everything, then I would say Aluminium frames arent as bad as they are made out. The best handling bike 450 or 250...
Given KTM doesnt win everything, then I would say Aluminium frames arent as bad as they are made out. The best handling bike 450 or 250 bike is not a KTM.
There is more into handling then the frame. But yeah, few years ago the chromoly was a handicap. Now it's the way to go? Grinning
Nothing wrong with either configs, both have their pros and cons and it's the total package that delivers the performance.

The Japanese always had a mass production meets high quality philosophy. So their choices might not always be aimed at top performance, and there is nothing wrong with that. They've proven to be competitive and where/are on top of the food chain for decades.
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Bruce372 5/5/2015 5:58am
5/5/2015 5:58am
So most big bikes have had aluminum frames for the last 10 years and the ktm has been the best handling bike how many times???
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Spooner 5/5/2015 6:07am
5/5/2015 6:07am
scott_nz wrote:
some of what you say makes sense, i think when building in bulk number alloy can be cheaper, but also KTM are not tooled up to...
some of what you say makes sense, i think when building in bulk number alloy can be cheaper,

but also KTM are not tooled up to produce alloy frames, they don't have road bikes with them either, where all the Japanese brands do, it would be a massive expense to tool up the production lines to build relatively small numbers of alloy frames,

there are some advantages to alloy frames, and also some downsides,

Kawasaki has just produced its first high performance road bike with a steel frame for over 20 years, so maybe they are not as stuck in their ways as everybody thinks,

Did you forget about Ducati?

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overthebars39 5/5/2015 6:18am
5/5/2015 6:18am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2015 6:18am
Spooner wrote:
Did you forget about Ducati?
And MV

Triumph, BMW and Aprilia have both chromoly and alu cast frames.
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markit 5/5/2015 6:46am
5/5/2015 6:46am
The whole AL frame deal was mostly perception. Look at how many years it took honda to make the AL frame usable (RC wanted his steel frame in the first years) The thing about the moto side is there swayed by looks and the big 4. I think they have it worked out for moto but I don't think it is very good for off road even now (or not the better choice). As above it was all about money. don't think for moto there is any need for them to go back as for MX the AL frame is working very well now.
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YZ125H1 5/5/2015 7:14am
5/5/2015 7:14am
scott_nz wrote:
some of what you say makes sense, i think when building in bulk number alloy can be cheaper, but also KTM are not tooled up to...
some of what you say makes sense, i think when building in bulk number alloy can be cheaper,

but also KTM are not tooled up to produce alloy frames, they don't have road bikes with them either, where all the Japanese brands do, it would be a massive expense to tool up the production lines to build relatively small numbers of alloy frames,

there are some advantages to alloy frames, and also some downsides,

Kawasaki has just produced its first high performance road bike with a steel frame for over 20 years, so maybe they are not as stuck in their ways as everybody thinks,

Was going to say the same thing about tooling. My only problem with the steel frame bike is they can be harder to grip compared to an aluminum perimeter frame at least for me. How many KTM riders did you see putting grip tape on the number plates and frame? Aluminum frames make it way harder to work on the bike have to take more apart.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 5/5/2015 7:42am
5/5/2015 7:42am
The new KTMs are light; but, it's not just the frame...

The new 450 motor is 2# lighter than a Honda 450R's...

THAT is just good engineering.
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BAMX 5/5/2015 7:48am
5/5/2015 7:48am
Markee wrote:
Creating lightweight castings that can be machined at a lower cost is where the advantage is for production. The aluminum skips a step as well needing...
Creating lightweight castings that can be machined at a lower cost is where the advantage is for production. The aluminum skips a step as well needing no coating to protect the finish. I have always assumed the frames were heat treated or normalized after welding, just because higher end bicycle frames are, but I don't know.

I can't imagine that the chromoly frames aren't heat treated. Welding puts a lot of stresses into the metal and heat treating / cryo relieves those stresses.

If it is cheaper to make an Al frame and I don't think it is, at least not significantly. It would be because the castings take the place of a bunch of smaller parts that need to be welded together. Think of where the shock mounts. On an Al bike, you have one machined piece that the frame tubes slide into. On a steel frame bike, you have a bunch of stamped parts and then bushings that are welded into those.
newmann
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newmann 5/5/2015 8:01am
5/5/2015 8:01am
The piss coat of paint the Japanese used to put on their uncleaned welds and steel frames was a joke at best. First ride out it would flake off of all the welds. KTM on the other hand, the finish on their frames is sandblast proof. Seriously.
Aceofspades 5/5/2015 8:21am
5/5/2015 8:21am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2015 8:23am
newmann wrote:
The piss coat of paint the Japanese used to put on their uncleaned welds and steel frames was a joke at best. First ride out it...
The piss coat of paint the Japanese used to put on their uncleaned welds and steel frames was a joke at best. First ride out it would flake off of all the welds. KTM on the other hand, the finish on their frames is sandblast proof. Seriously.
Its amazing to see how far ktm has come. I remember the old days of 84-9* when the were described as "confused, poorly suspended rockets"- MXA lol. They were always nice bikes though. Poor Broc Glover never gets credit, but he supposedly was the main development rider for the "americanized" 1992 model that kind of started ktm down the road to actually building bikes to suit the Anerican market, if my memory is correct. Somebody correct me if im wrong. Id love to see Matthes do a podcast with Glover and talk specifically about his gp ride and working with KTM. That kind of inside story is interesting as hell.
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Brent 5/5/2015 8:48am
5/5/2015 8:48am
TeamGreen wrote:
The new KTMs are light; but, it's not just the frame... The new 450 motor is 2# lighter than a Honda 450R's... THAT is just good...
The new KTMs are light; but, it's not just the frame...

The new 450 motor is 2# lighter than a Honda 450R's...

THAT is just good engineering.
WITH electric start and more HP.

I can't wait to see the 16 350, getting one of those things when they finally show up will be difficult I'm sure...
joeellis
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joeellis 5/5/2015 8:50am
5/5/2015 8:50am
It seems that engineers can design more specific flex characteristics into steel frames. Steel and steel alloy is is more elastic if you will, which allows the frame/tubes to flex and spring back much easier than Aluminum. Steel will also give an indication of stress if used for a long length of time under normal use. It can snap under excessive force. Aluminum on the other hand doesn't always show normal wear indicators and can break catastrofically from extended use. All frames are probably designed to be strong enough to last practically forever under normal stress though.

Aluminum frames require either huge tubes and/or thicker walls to acheive suitable strenght. When either or of those aspects are used, the frame is just going to be more rigid. No way around it. The use of steel has been around for centuries and its design properties have been refined much more than Aluminum. The use of Aluminum has been around a much shorter length of time and maybe can be made much better in the future. The Japanese have already done a good job of making their frames better since they were first used.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 5/5/2015 8:54am
5/5/2015 8:54am
TeamGreen wrote:
The new KTMs are light; but, it's not just the frame... The new 450 motor is 2# lighter than a Honda 450R's... THAT is just good...
The new KTMs are light; but, it's not just the frame...

The new 450 motor is 2# lighter than a Honda 450R's...

THAT is just good engineering.
Brent wrote:
WITH electric start and more HP. I can't wait to see the 16 350, getting one of those things when they finally show up will be...
WITH electric start and more HP.

I can't wait to see the 16 350, getting one of those things when they finally show up will be difficult I'm sure...
This is the direction I'm thinkng...
mikebrownsound 5/5/2015 10:16am
5/5/2015 10:16am
depends on different type of soils, and the rider on the bike if you ask me Smile I love them both !

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