BIKE CHANGES FROM MOTO 1 TO MOTO 2???

TOSH25
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Edited Date/Time 7/30/2014 12:50pm
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they will adjust setup, suspension, tyres etc. but do they put new motors in for every moto, new clutches etc. always wondered how extreme the teams are with changes to prevent mechanical failures??
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MxKing809
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7/27/2014 9:06am Edited Date/Time 7/27/2014 9:07am
TOSH25 wrote:
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they...
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they will adjust setup, suspension, tyres etc. but do they put new motors in for every moto, new clutches etc. always wondered how extreme the teams are with changes to prevent mechanical failures??
I've witnessed them change power-bands before, depending on track condition....


enketchum
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7/27/2014 9:33am
I usually like to put in new exhaust bearings and a new frame.
Don't forget to refill the brake light fluid reservoir
uk125250
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7/27/2014 9:33am
TOSH25 wrote:
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they...
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they will adjust setup, suspension, tyres etc. but do they put new motors in for every moto, new clutches etc. always wondered how extreme the teams are with changes to prevent mechanical failures??
Nice question. I would imagine it varies between riders, teams, track conditions, etc. I'm sure someone will have a legitimate answer.

The Shop

ML512
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7/27/2014 9:44am
I usually like to put in new exhaust bearings and a new frame.
enketchum wrote:
Don't forget to refill the brake light fluid reservoir
Absolutely essential!
JA946
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7/27/2014 9:48am
TOSH25 wrote:
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they...
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they will adjust setup, suspension, tyres etc. but do they put new motors in for every moto, new clutches etc. always wondered how extreme the teams are with changes to prevent mechanical failures??
Wash, air filter - 250F's I think they're changing the clutch, so transmission fluid too. Not sure if they're doing motor oil...They will also change grips and graphics. New set of tyres, check chain, radiator, adjusting clutch...

I really have no clue what I am talking about. I'm just guessing.
MxKing809
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7/27/2014 9:57am
They won't do a motor swap unless something is askew. I remember at Pontiac SX a few years ago they did a full engine swap on Windham's Honda between practice sessions. That was awesome to watch. Four guys getting after it!! Took them about 15 minutes total, I was super impressed.

coastie44
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7/27/2014 10:00am
MxKing809 wrote:
I've witnessed them change power-bands before, depending on track condition.... [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2014/07/27/60994/s1200_image.jpg[/img]
I've witnessed them change power-bands before, depending on track condition....


Funny thing is, with FI bikes, you really can change the powerband with just a change of the coupler (KXF, RMZ) or a few clicks of the FI programmer. 1st moto - aggressive ignition/fuel settings for the deep stuff, 2nd moto - retarded ignition and some fuel changes to smooth things out for the slick hardpack.
enketchum
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7/28/2014 8:54pm
coastie44 wrote:
Funny thing is, with FI bikes, you really can change the powerband with just a change of the coupler (KXF, RMZ) or a few clicks of...
Funny thing is, with FI bikes, you really can change the powerband with just a change of the coupler (KXF, RMZ) or a few clicks of the FI programmer. 1st moto - aggressive ignition/fuel settings for the deep stuff, 2nd moto - retarded ignition and some fuel changes to smooth things out for the slick hardpack.
Hi, you must be new here
slipdog
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7/28/2014 9:02pm
coastie44 wrote:
Funny thing is, with FI bikes, you really can change the powerband with just a change of the coupler (KXF, RMZ) or a few clicks of...
Funny thing is, with FI bikes, you really can change the powerband with just a change of the coupler (KXF, RMZ) or a few clicks of the FI programmer. 1st moto - aggressive ignition/fuel settings for the deep stuff, 2nd moto - retarded ignition and some fuel changes to smooth things out for the slick hardpack.
enketchum wrote:
Hi, you must be new here
No kidding, everyone knows you don't use the word "retarded"...
JM485
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7/28/2014 9:03pm
Don't forget the exhaust filter. It goes largely unnoticed (most hobby riders don't even know there is one), but can make a big difference in power. Combine that with a fresh muffler bearing and power band and it is damn near impossible to lose a moto!
7/30/2014 8:14am
JM485 wrote:
Don't forget the exhaust filter. It goes largely unnoticed (most hobby riders don't even know there is one), but can make a big difference in power...
Don't forget the exhaust filter. It goes largely unnoticed (most hobby riders don't even know there is one), but can make a big difference in power. Combine that with a fresh muffler bearing and power band and it is damn near impossible to lose a moto!
Damn I forgot to mention that one!
IWreckALot
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7/30/2014 8:46am
MxKing809 wrote:
They won't do a motor swap unless something is askew. I remember at Pontiac SX a few years ago they did a full engine swap on...
They won't do a motor swap unless something is askew. I remember at Pontiac SX a few years ago they did a full engine swap on Windham's Honda between practice sessions. That was awesome to watch. Four guys getting after it!! Took them about 15 minutes total, I was super impressed.

I don't think they do motor swaps either but on the motor note, I remember hearing that PC (might have been Geico but one of the two) has a bank of race engines. The engines are rebuilt after every race and do not go back in the same bike they came out of. So the motor that Baggett is using this weekend could be the motor that another PC rider is using next weekend.
Dirty Mike
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7/30/2014 8:49am
IWreckALot wrote:
I don't think they do motor swaps either but on the motor note, I remember hearing that PC (might have been Geico but one of the...
I don't think they do motor swaps either but on the motor note, I remember hearing that PC (might have been Geico but one of the two) has a bank of race engines. The engines are rebuilt after every race and do not go back in the same bike they came out of. So the motor that Baggett is using this weekend could be the motor that another PC rider is using next weekend.
Do the motors not go back in the same bike because of chance or intentionally?
UpTiTe
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7/30/2014 9:42am
TOSH25 wrote:
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they...
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they will adjust setup, suspension, tyres etc. but do they put new motors in for every moto, new clutches etc. always wondered how extreme the teams are with changes to prevent mechanical failures??
Wash, filter, clutch, oils, rear tire, done. Obviously they give the bike a once or twice over and change anything they see wrong along with making sure everything is tight.
Ardfarkl
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7/30/2014 10:41am
TOSH25 wrote:
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they...
Was just wondering what a mechanic will change on the bike from the first moto to the second moto. obviously if the bike isn't handling they will adjust setup, suspension, tyres etc. but do they put new motors in for every moto, new clutches etc. always wondered how extreme the teams are with changes to prevent mechanical failures??
JA946 wrote:
Wash, air filter - 250F's I think they're changing the clutch, so transmission fluid too. Not sure if they're doing motor oil...They will also change grips...
Wash, air filter - 250F's I think they're changing the clutch, so transmission fluid too. Not sure if they're doing motor oil...They will also change grips and graphics. New set of tyres, check chain, radiator, adjusting clutch...

I really have no clue what I am talking about. I'm just guessing.
I have watched them throw away air filters as they pull them out and put in a new one. (this was 10 years ago)
Ardfarkl
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7/30/2014 10:46am
MxKing809 wrote:
They won't do a motor swap unless something is askew. I remember at Pontiac SX a few years ago they did a full engine swap on...
They won't do a motor swap unless something is askew. I remember at Pontiac SX a few years ago they did a full engine swap on Windham's Honda between practice sessions. That was awesome to watch. Four guys getting after it!! Took them about 15 minutes total, I was super impressed.

IWreckALot wrote:
I don't think they do motor swaps either but on the motor note, I remember hearing that PC (might have been Geico but one of the...
I don't think they do motor swaps either but on the motor note, I remember hearing that PC (might have been Geico but one of the two) has a bank of race engines. The engines are rebuilt after every race and do not go back in the same bike they came out of. So the motor that Baggett is using this weekend could be the motor that another PC rider is using next weekend.
Not sure how that could happen. All at PC have stated that no one rider has a motor like another. All want/need something completely different from another. Would have to imagine it to be the same way for all teams. It was talked about by Emig during this past SX season As picky as PRO riders can be about one click on rebound there seems to be no way that there is a one size fits all motor combo.
IWreckALot
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7/30/2014 10:47am
Dirty Mike wrote:
Do the motors not go back in the same bike because of chance or intentionally?
As I understood it, it was intentional as much as it was for fairness among the PC guys. I don't know that they gave a specific reason but that's what I remember them eluding to. They would pull the motors from the bikes, rebuild them then put them back in line. When someone else needed a new motor, the would pull from the rebuilt line. They said the motors were all built identically so one guy didn't have something the other guys couldn't have.

This is why I got a little suspicious when Wilson had his bike problems and then Baggett had his problems. I was wondering if it was something wrong with PC motors in general or if it was a particular engine that kept going into the bank that they thought they fixed but never got fixed. It could have been in Wilson's bike one weekend and Baggett's the next.
7/30/2014 10:55am
Slightly off subject but I've often wondered what the officials are looking for when the bikes go through tech inspection. Obviously these bikes are in a brand new state, so I don't expect them to be looking for loose spokes or worn wheel bearings. Is it mainly for weight & noise issues?
Mr Bean
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7/30/2014 11:02am
IWreckALot wrote:
As I understood it, it was intentional as much as it was for fairness among the PC guys. I don't know that they gave a specific...
As I understood it, it was intentional as much as it was for fairness among the PC guys. I don't know that they gave a specific reason but that's what I remember them eluding to. They would pull the motors from the bikes, rebuild them then put them back in line. When someone else needed a new motor, the would pull from the rebuilt line. They said the motors were all built identically so one guy didn't have something the other guys couldn't have.

This is why I got a little suspicious when Wilson had his bike problems and then Baggett had his problems. I was wondering if it was something wrong with PC motors in general or if it was a particular engine that kept going into the bank that they thought they fixed but never got fixed. It could have been in Wilson's bike one weekend and Baggett's the next.
PC builds grenades that are designed to last only for the day... and sometimes don't even make that goal.

I think it was MXA that wanted to test one of their bikes after a race and was told "no way" because the engine would be beyond its lifespan and they knew it would let go during the test.

Doesn't make for good press when you're trying to sell expensive aftermarket parts/services.


UpTiTe
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7/30/2014 11:03am
Each motor is tagged to the rider that motor came from,the motors are not interchangeable. They go into a box at the end of the race with that mechanics name on it and shipped to the shop for a rebuild.
circus
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7/30/2014 11:23am
I can only speak of my experience with Yamaha of Troy in 2008 when they had practice on saturday and race on Sundays, but between motos: we washed the bike, used an air blower to dry it off, change the clutch and engine oil, new air filter, yes we did throw them away at times, new tires and tighten chain, lube what we had time for and check all nuts & bolts. All of our engines were designated to each rider, they all had their own preference of cams and some riders were hard on the gas so the Piston to valve clearance had to be different for each guy. Near the end of the outdoors our engine rotation was new engine for race day practice and first moto, pull that engine, and then a new engine for 2nd moto and then that motor would also be the next rounds Saturday/Sunday engine until moto 2. I hope that makes sense.
IWreckALot
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7/30/2014 11:30am
Mr Bean wrote:
PC builds grenades that are designed to last only for the day... and sometimes don't even make that goal. I think it was MXA that wanted...
PC builds grenades that are designed to last only for the day... and sometimes don't even make that goal.

I think it was MXA that wanted to test one of their bikes after a race and was told "no way" because the engine would be beyond its lifespan and they knew it would let go during the test.

Doesn't make for good press when you're trying to sell expensive aftermarket parts/services.


I recall hearing that also. Crazy to think that they can consistently time the detonation to such a specific time frame. Seems like it would be inconsistent with motor work like that.

As far as the PR aspect, it doesn't seem to be slowing their business any. I think the general public can understand that they build their race bikes with different expectations than their team's race bikes.
TOSH25
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7/30/2014 11:35am
circus wrote:
I can only speak of my experience with Yamaha of Troy in 2008 when they had practice on saturday and race on Sundays, but between motos...
I can only speak of my experience with Yamaha of Troy in 2008 when they had practice on saturday and race on Sundays, but between motos: we washed the bike, used an air blower to dry it off, change the clutch and engine oil, new air filter, yes we did throw them away at times, new tires and tighten chain, lube what we had time for and check all nuts & bolts. All of our engines were designated to each rider, they all had their own preference of cams and some riders were hard on the gas so the Piston to valve clearance had to be different for each guy. Near the end of the outdoors our engine rotation was new engine for race day practice and first moto, pull that engine, and then a new engine for 2nd moto and then that motor would also be the next rounds Saturday/Sunday engine until moto 2. I hope that makes sense.
that's awesome...really good detail, yea makes total sense, thank youWinkSmile
IWreckALot
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7/30/2014 11:36am
circus wrote:
I can only speak of my experience with Yamaha of Troy in 2008 when they had practice on saturday and race on Sundays, but between motos...
I can only speak of my experience with Yamaha of Troy in 2008 when they had practice on saturday and race on Sundays, but between motos: we washed the bike, used an air blower to dry it off, change the clutch and engine oil, new air filter, yes we did throw them away at times, new tires and tighten chain, lube what we had time for and check all nuts & bolts. All of our engines were designated to each rider, they all had their own preference of cams and some riders were hard on the gas so the Piston to valve clearance had to be different for each guy. Near the end of the outdoors our engine rotation was new engine for race day practice and first moto, pull that engine, and then a new engine for 2nd moto and then that motor would also be the next rounds Saturday/Sunday engine until moto 2. I hope that makes sense.
To me, that makes more sense than 4 riders rotating 12 motors. I always thought different riders would prefer the power delivery to be different. But I suppose that with all the ignition mapping options, you can electronically set each motor to deliver the power to the rider's preference.

I don't know a lot about FI but it makes sense in my head.
Mr Bean
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7/30/2014 11:41am
IWreckALot wrote:
I recall hearing that also. Crazy to think that they can consistently time the detonation to such a specific time frame. Seems like it would be...
I recall hearing that also. Crazy to think that they can consistently time the detonation to such a specific time frame. Seems like it would be inconsistent with motor work like that.

As far as the PR aspect, it doesn't seem to be slowing their business any. I think the general public can understand that they build their race bikes with different expectations than their team's race bikes.
I mean they didn't want to loan out a race bike to a national mag only to have it go boom and then that get reported.

And it's not crazy how it can be done - it's done at all the highest levels of motor sports. Engineers know from testing and the collected data (along with the volumes of historical data) what can be expected for a lifespan. They know how many revs etc the engine will turn and how long it will be running so they can build it for that target and build in a small factor of safety so they hopefully aren't cutting it too close. If they want long term reliability they can run an XR or John Deere. But they're looking for the highest possible performance and only need it to last the designated amount of time. No extra metal, weight, friction, etc is desired - performance above all else.

However, sometimes things fall outside the normal bell curve (might have a part that tests good but is on the low end of the acceptable quality minimum) and that's when you see the spectacular failures and resulting DNFs.

circus
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7/30/2014 12:06pm
IWreckALot wrote:
To me, that makes more sense than 4 riders rotating 12 motors. I always thought different riders would prefer the power delivery to be different. But...
To me, that makes more sense than 4 riders rotating 12 motors. I always thought different riders would prefer the power delivery to be different. But I suppose that with all the ignition mapping options, you can electronically set each motor to deliver the power to the rider's preference.

I don't know a lot about FI but it makes sense in my head.
This was 2008 on a Yamaha 250f, so we didn't have FI, but we had a programmer to burn whatever ign. map we wanted to try right in house, so along with each riders specific motor, we had to match up an ignition curve that would work well with the power they wanted also. This is where knowing the RPMs in each corner and all that comes into play, if a rider never goes below 6,000rpm for example, then you simply tune the power for 6,000-14,2000, which was our redline on our race bikes.
Question
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7/30/2014 12:50pm

I do not get all the negative sarcastic comments.

Back to the subject, Cairoli uses 3 engines per week end so I guess in Nationals they use 2 to 3 engines as in GPs.

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