At Some Point, This Has To Stop.

pilotdude
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3/22/2015 5:52am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2015 7:53pm
Last night in Detroit was a perfect example of why our current supercross champion is in Europe right now. Top rider after top rider crashing, and crashing HARD. Trey Canard's supercross season is ruined, and probably his outdoor championship chances too..

Jake Weimer is screwed. Ken Rozcen not out there. Mike Alessi not out there, and also tweeting how he thought the track was way too dangerous. James Stewart tweeting the same thing.

Kevin Windham said a few days ago he is GLAD is son doesn't want to race, and hopes he NEVER does.

And before anyone starts puking the complete and utter bullshit line of, "Are they supposed to ride around on flat tracks?", remember this:

Ryan Villopoto in one of his recent interviews talking about GP riders coming over here:

"I’d like to see any one of these Europeans go to the U.S. and go straight into supercross and motocross, you know? They’d end up in the first ambulance ride to the hospital."

Why do you think he said that, boys and girls? Because this "circus", and the people who run it, is out of control. The speed and power of modern 450s combined with the design of these tracks has narrowed the safety margin to a razor's edge, and we are seeing more riders getting very slashed by that razor. You hear top riders talking about it all the time.

Yeah, I get it: Supercross is dangerous. Right. Uh huh. Got it. I've been watching it since 1982. And at some point it will or HAS ALREADY crossed over the "dangerous" line into something else. Remember the outrage from Chad Reed and others about the incredibly dangerous jump in St. Louis in 2010 that wiped out Ryan Villopoto's 2010 supercross and motocross seasons? The same jump that destroyed Ivan Tedesco a few laps later, and made Andrew Short say, "I was holding by breath every time I went over that jump." Whatever happened to all that outrage and talk that "Something has to be done?" Talk of unions. Talk of safety committees. No action of any kind.

That was 5 years ago.

We've had career-ending injuries. We've had life-devastating paralysis. The only thing missing, and my guess is that it is coming at some point, is someone being killed. Maybe even a big-name factory rider. Maybe THAT will change things so that cooler heads prevail and someone with two balls and at least half a brain makes a stand.

We will see. But I doubt it.



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Premix
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3/22/2015 6:04am
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get real...the same thing has happened at the national tracks. It's called progression, both in the bikes, riders, and tracks. There's no going back now.

The tracks the year have gotten progressively tougher, which I like. Seperates the top guys and has given us better racing.
Bultaco
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3/22/2015 6:08am Edited Date/Time 3/22/2015 6:09am
Pilotdude, I agree with your post.

My employer, the FAA, charged with safety as it's primary mission has been called more than once a "tombstone" agency. i.e. some people have to die before a bad situation/rule is changed. It seems those in charge at Feld may have attended the same school of thought.

I enjoy and have been a lifelong dirt bike guy. I am embarrassed to sit with my wife/non-moto people and watch the carnage that is called a "family sport" like last nights supercross.
pilotdude
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3/22/2015 6:09am
Premix wrote:
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get...
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get real...the same thing has happened at the national tracks. It's called progression, both in the bikes, riders, and tracks. There's no going back now.

The tracks the year have gotten progressively tougher, which I like. Seperates the top guys and has given us better racing.
You, and those like you, are part of the problem.
KlootZak
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3/22/2015 6:13am
Premix wrote:
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get...
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get real...the same thing has happened at the national tracks. It's called progression, both in the bikes, riders, and tracks. There's no going back now.

The tracks the year have gotten progressively tougher, which I like. Seperates the top guys and has given us better racing.
pilotdude wrote:
You, and those like you, are part of the problem.
x2

The Shop

KMC440
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3/22/2015 6:15am
The issue I've noticed most is the downsides are ridiculously abrupt or non existent. Usually with an incredibly sharp squared off edge at the top of the landings. While I understand some of the rhythm sections would be affected by grading out the landing zones ie; step-on step-off, the end result would be a more forgiving track in the event of a minor mistake.
Premix
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3/22/2015 6:17am
Premix wrote:
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get...
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get real...the same thing has happened at the national tracks. It's called progression, both in the bikes, riders, and tracks. There's no going back now.

The tracks the year have gotten progressively tougher, which I like. Seperates the top guys and has given us better racing.
pilotdude wrote:
You, and those like you, are part of the problem.
How so? What's your answer then? Decrease in CC? Smaller jumps? People will still find a way to wreck and injury themselves.

Look at all the protective gear available and all of the people not wearing it. What's the old adage, dress for the crash not the ride? Maybe start there?
Johnny Depp
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3/22/2015 6:18am
All across the country every amateur and most accommodating track owners keep raising the bar along with the pro's. I've got neighbors that have number plate stickers in memory of their son that got killed racing, and they are not alone.
3/22/2015 6:21am
Premix wrote:
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get...
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get real...the same thing has happened at the national tracks. It's called progression, both in the bikes, riders, and tracks. There's no going back now.

The tracks the year have gotten progressively tougher, which I like. Seperates the top guys and has given us better racing.
Define "better racing".
zippy895
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3/22/2015 6:23am
what sx year produced the most red flags?
1stSSPZ
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3/22/2015 6:25am
All across the country every amateur and most accommodating track owners keep raising the bar along with the pro's. I've got neighbors that have number plate...
All across the country every amateur and most accommodating track owners keep raising the bar along with the pro's. I've got neighbors that have number plate stickers in memory of their son that got killed racing, and they are not alone.
Dig that! Hell, I don't take my boys to half the (few) tracks left around here because they are too damn dangerous. Neither of my boys are going to be the next RV and I don't want them to even think of it. Going trail riding today, screw it...
pilotdude
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3/22/2015 6:26am
zippy895 wrote:
what sx year produced the most red flags?
This year ain't over yet bud.
CamP
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3/22/2015 6:27am
The sport has evolved into it's own worst problem.

The trickle down effect from professional SX/MX racing has made it's way to grass roots amateur racing where home schooled kids spending their days with riding coaches, physical trainers and nutritionists are the norm. They pound out laps every day on highly developed 4-strokes that make going fast easy, and if they have talent and survive their amateur career, they get to test their luck to the steep learning curve of supercross.

The casualties are discarded and a new crop of bright eyed kids/parents with dreams of racing stardom take their place

Sully22
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3/22/2015 6:28am
It's insane 6 riders had to go down and out, more than likely injuring themselves for the remaining supercross season and potentially outdoors. I don't think I'm alone in saying this but I did not like that track design at all last night, there was no flow, and way too many riders going down for there not to be something said and changed. The rhythm lanes were bizarre, and even the old school Track design up into the stands looked awkward. The riders should have more say in track design setup and safety. No one looked comfortable out there, minus maybe tomac and bogle. They really should have fixed those rhythm lanes....where the majority of crashes took place.
benstone
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3/22/2015 6:30am
Premix wrote:
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get...
So 6 riders get injured and now it's too dangerous? So I guess the other 100 riders that rode the same track were just lucky? Get real...the same thing has happened at the national tracks. It's called progression, both in the bikes, riders, and tracks. There's no going back now.

The tracks the year have gotten progressively tougher, which I like. Seperates the top guys and has given us better racing.
pilotdude wrote:
You, and those like you, are part of the problem.
KlootZak wrote:
x2
X3

Just because there is some level of danger involved in the sport doesn't mean that the level of danger can't be managed and mitigated to some degree. Look at go-fast-turn-left-roundy-round-racing. Restrictor plates, crash barriers and other mandatory safety devices were put into play as a way to help keep drivers safer. I don't follow car racing much, but I am sure those changes happened right after a chorus of people shrugged their shoulders and said things similar to Premix about just accepting the fact that it's a dangerous sport.
SquidBro
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3/22/2015 6:31am
Question is, who's going to step in the way of technology? !
Insider347
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3/22/2015 6:35am
Agree 100% Pilotdude. Also Josh Hill, Barcia,. Weston and Lemoine had rough get offs last night. The last few tracks have really been sketchy. These guys dedicate so much time training for Saturday nights and then in a second it's over and some could be minimized. Just look at Treys face when he was being driven off. I really felt for him.
On top of all that, it ruins the excitement of the series.
Premix
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3/22/2015 6:35am
Ya'll can come on here and bitch but I guarantee not one of you will do anything but that, just bitch.

Who was to blame for Doug Henry's injuries? Emigs injuries snaping both forearms?

Truth of the matter is that the tracks match both the refined skill level of the riders and the capabilities of the bikes. The racing is much closer now that what it was even 10 years ago.
Crush
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3/22/2015 6:36am Edited Date/Time 3/22/2015 6:43am
The bikes are really really really good, speeds higher, better suspension, more horsepower, better traction and tracks that are throwing the guys further/higher in multiple combination.

Quads in the old days were triples that were deliberately built as one big ass jump. Now it's there is another jump in a lane and my bike can make it so let's go.

I really believe the violently abrupt yet slower bikes with more technical, slower, steeper tracks were safer, just because the speeds were lower... Go watch some early 90s supercross, double double double, maybe, maybe triple.

Progression is great, but really, the human body can only take so much. The sport in 2000-2005 was perfect bike wise... Watching RC, James and Chad go apeshit to get all they could out of a 250 two stroke was amazing. 250effs are about the same now and 450s more and more again.
3/22/2015 6:37am
250's run in the same neighborhood of lap times. Also, stock 250's are close to the same HP of two stroke 250s before the "four stroke revolution" happened.

Everyone with a brain knows something needs to give.

The fact that modern mx bikes are so easy to ride, well suspended, insanely fast, all while being pretty fucking heavy.. all that adds up to a bike that is super easy to ride and gives riders (pro and am) a false sense of security in trying sections or jumps they ordinarily wouldn't be able to do.

It astounds me that kids hop off their 15hp RM85L's onto 40hp RMZ250's, and we accept that as normal. That is insanity and contributes to increased levels of danger both with track designs and the tough guy mentailty of "stepping up" to try sections or jumps which are much higher risk.

hillbilly
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3/22/2015 6:37am
A person could dig thru old posts about tracks being to easy and find most of the same members complaining the track was to technical or had no flow or to dangerous.
3/22/2015 6:40am
SquidBro wrote:
Question is, who's going to step in the way of technology? !
Q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶'̶s̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶t̶e̶p̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶e̶c̶h̶n̶o̶l̶o̶g̶y̶?̶

Question is, who's going to step in the way of the manufacturers and hop-up companies?

Fixed.

Crush
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3/22/2015 6:42am Edited Date/Time 3/22/2015 6:44am
250's run in the same neighborhood of lap times. Also, stock 250's are close to the same HP of two stroke 250s before the "four stroke...
250's run in the same neighborhood of lap times. Also, stock 250's are close to the same HP of two stroke 250s before the "four stroke revolution" happened.

Everyone with a brain knows something needs to give.

The fact that modern mx bikes are so easy to ride, well suspended, insanely fast, all while being pretty fucking heavy.. all that adds up to a bike that is super easy to ride and gives riders (pro and am) a false sense of security in trying sections or jumps they ordinarily wouldn't be able to do.

It astounds me that kids hop off their 15hp RM85L's onto 40hp RMZ250's, and we accept that as normal. That is insanity and contributes to increased levels of danger both with track designs and the tough guy mentailty of "stepping up" to try sections or jumps which are much higher risk.

Yep.

Seriously.

125cc two strokes as the "lites" class. Lower amateur costs, help the scene, the step to big bikes, lower costs for small class teams at pro level.

250 effs as the premier class. Bikes can do everything without being silly, closer racing, equivalent to two strokes in the day.

Leave 450s for rally bikes and desert, just like 500s with 60+HP were left out there in the early 90s....
3/22/2015 6:42am
hillbilly wrote:
A person could dig thru old posts about tracks being to easy and find most of the same members complaining the track was to technical or...
A person could dig thru old posts about tracks being to easy and find most of the same members complaining the track was to technical or had no flow or to dangerous.
Modern bikes demand tracks with substantially increased risk to separate talent.
SquidBro
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3/22/2015 6:43am
SquidBro wrote:
Question is, who's going to step in the way of technology? !
Q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶'̶s̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶t̶e̶p̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶e̶c̶h̶n̶o̶l̶o̶g̶y̶?̶ Question is, who's going to step in the way of the manufacturers and hop-up companies...
Q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶'̶s̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶t̶e̶p̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶e̶c̶h̶n̶o̶l̶o̶g̶y̶?̶

Question is, who's going to step in the way of the manufacturers and hop-up companies?

Fixed.

Exactly, bro.
blusmbl
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3/22/2015 6:45am
Premix wrote:
How so? What's your answer then? Decrease in CC? Smaller jumps? People will still find a way to wreck and injury themselves. Look at all the...
How so? What's your answer then? Decrease in CC? Smaller jumps? People will still find a way to wreck and injury themselves.

Look at all the protective gear available and all of the people not wearing it. What's the old adage, dress for the crash not the ride? Maybe start there?
I try not to agree with inflammatory viewpoints, but this is a good statement. Instead of just saying "something is wrong, people are getting hurt", we should provide potential solutions. It sucks what happened to Trey and Jake, but that could've happened on any section, on a much smaller displacement bike. The only suggestion that makes sense is what Stewart mentioned on twitter- don't have complex rhythm sections right after the start, because the riders are too bunched up.

Slowing the bikes down has some merit, but that certainly could've happened on a 250, too. It would be interesting to survey the riders in both classes to see what they would want to change. I don't think many would mention slowing the bikes down, but a bunch would mention track design/layout.
3/22/2015 6:48am
It isn't the tracks, it is the bikes. If you tame tracks down, it just makes them faster and more dangerous. At 6'4" and 205 lbs, 450cc dirt bikes are a big advantage for me, but I gotta say, I had just as much fun going slower on my 250 two stroke. Problem is, I race, so me and everyone I race with wants to be on the fastest bike available in the class. Time to change the rules and slow things down.
CamP
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3/22/2015 6:56am
hillbilly wrote:
A person could dig thru old posts about tracks being to easy and find most of the same members complaining the track was to technical or...
A person could dig thru old posts about tracks being to easy and find most of the same members complaining the track was to technical or had no flow or to dangerous.
Read my mind.

I've also heard many of the top 5 pros say the same thing when the tracks are "too easy".
hvaughn88
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3/22/2015 6:59am
Somebody brought up a good point in the other thread about the motocross community making a change before an outside force (perhaps the government) comes in and does it for us. I agree and think it's a great point. Regardless of how much you think needs to change, being proactive and making change has to be a better option than an outside force making a reactive change. Just a thought.
3/22/2015 7:00am Edited Date/Time 3/22/2015 7:04am
It isn't the tracks, it is the bikes. If you tame tracks down, it just makes them faster and more dangerous. At 6'4" and 205 lbs...
It isn't the tracks, it is the bikes. If you tame tracks down, it just makes them faster and more dangerous. At 6'4" and 205 lbs, 450cc dirt bikes are a big advantage for me, but I gotta say, I had just as much fun going slower on my 250 two stroke. Problem is, I race, so me and everyone I race with wants to be on the fastest bike available in the class. Time to change the rules and slow things down.
OK so how do you propose doing that when manufacturers drive everything in this series (and the outdoors)? Only two of them offer ring-dingers anymore (three if you include Husqvarna) One says they will never make another two stroke, because they want to appear environmentally concious or some horseshit. Only one(two with husky) make 350cc four strokes. None of them make a full size four stroke less than 250cc.

How do you propose to change shit up? The big four aren't going to have time to develop, test and manufacture smaller displacement engines in time for next SX season. KTM, Husky might be able to because they are smaller companies. But everbody knows Honda (and to a lesser extend Kaw, Suz and Yam) run the show.

Is simply limiting the existing engines to "Stock" acceptable? Because FMF, Pro Circuit and many others will not go along with that. What about stock cylinders/valves but aftermarket exhausts? Even then you still have 40/55hp machines in the 250 and 450 classes, so nothing really changes there either.

The solution has to include the aftermarket industry in some way.. that gravy train ain't gonna stop on account of a few broken extremities or necks.

The obvious solution is to downsize the engines quite a bit, then adjust the tracks accordingly. One can't happen without the other.. or else we get complaints of dull racing again. I'd love to see the 125 class come back, but.. Honda won't let that happen.
gsxrcr28
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3/22/2015 7:04am
The best chance at getting the tracks safer is a riders union.

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