Andrew Short's Rear Shock

TX24
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Edited Date/Time 3/17/2015 11:00am
I realize there are numerous photos of his rear air shock on the bike. I searched and can't find any of it off the bike sitting on a bench. Is this a media courtesy for the team right now? If anyone forgot or didn't know, it's 2 pounds lighter than a regular rear shock and does run on air.
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ML512
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3/16/2015 7:05am
TX24 wrote:
I realize there are numerous photos of his rear air shock on the bike. I searched and can't find any of it off the bike sitting...
I realize there are numerous photos of his rear air shock on the bike. I searched and can't find any of it off the bike sitting on a bench. Is this a media courtesy for the team right now? If anyone forgot or didn't know, it's 2 pounds lighter than a regular rear shock and does run on air.
We can shoot it while it's on the bike, but we can't shoot it while the seat is off and see the system they use to fill it (I think there might be some sort of blow-off chamber for air expansion) or shoot it when it's off the bike. I don't think they will even attempt to remove it under the awning, they would probably take it inside of the truck to keep the peering eyes away.
TX24
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3/16/2015 7:57am
Thanks, interesting info. I was curious how big the shaft is.
hvaughn88
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3/16/2015 7:58am
TX24 wrote:
Thanks, interesting info. I was curious how big the shaft is.
Must...hold...back...Laughing
nytsmaC
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3/16/2015 8:01am
I can't see it actually being 2lbs lighter than Dungey's shock, a Ti shock spring only weighs about 2lbs depending on the rate. The air chamber has to weigh something.

The Shop

ML512
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3/16/2015 8:12am Edited Date/Time 3/16/2015 8:12am
nytsmaC wrote:
I can't see it actually being 2lbs lighter than Dungey's shock, a Ti shock spring only weighs about 2lbs depending on the rate. The air chamber...
I can't see it actually being 2lbs lighter than Dungey's shock, a Ti shock spring only weighs about 2lbs depending on the rate. The air chamber has to weigh something.
Quite a few teams/suspension groups have stepped away from Ti-springs. I can check if WP is one of them.
nytsmaC
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3/16/2015 8:26am Edited Date/Time 3/16/2015 8:27am
Interesting. While the Ti spring isn't as light as some claim, it is around 1lb lighter than steel, depending on application of course. I guess when you see teams using mousse inserts and steel shock springs, weight savings isn't the end-all be-all for some riders/teams. Even unsprung and rotating weight, which theoretically should be where you can feel it the most.

Off topic, but you might know. What do most of the championship contenders use for tubes/mousses in SX and MX?
TX24
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3/16/2015 8:45am
I had always heard unsprung weight is weight passed the spring. So are springs unsprung weight? Guess not.
TeamGreen
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3/16/2015 9:12am Edited Date/Time 3/16/2015 9:20am
It IS much lighter.

Other notables: some people have been comparing it to the Fox Shox Air Shock. That's jus' funny. Others have compared a shock with a spring to a shock with no spring; yet, they still don't get the weight savings? Ok.

WP is taking their sweet time getting it right for production, and I like that.

Andrew & the crew are getting ACS dialed in, for us...soon.
nytsmaC
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3/16/2015 9:21am
TeamGreen wrote:
It IS much lighter. Other notables: some people have been comparing it to the Fox Shox Air Shock. That's jus' funny. Others have compared a shock...
It IS much lighter.

Other notables: some people have been comparing it to the Fox Shox Air Shock. That's jus' funny. Others have compared a shock with a spring to a shock with no spring; yet, they still don't get the weight savings? Ok.

WP is taking their sweet time getting it right for production, and I like that.

Andrew & the crew are getting ACS dialed in, for us...soon.
I get the weight savings Manny, I see the potential there and it looks trick as hell. Just questioning the 2lb number being thrown around. Maybe it is 2lbs lighter, I just don't understand how. Even if it's only 1lb lighter that's significant, I'm not putting it down.
CR250Rider
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3/16/2015 9:23am
KTM showed Jody the WP air shock and let him photograph it to his hearts content.

TeamGreen
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3/16/2015 9:34am
TeamGreen wrote:
It IS much lighter. Other notables: some people have been comparing it to the Fox Shox Air Shock. That's jus' funny. Others have compared a shock...
It IS much lighter.

Other notables: some people have been comparing it to the Fox Shox Air Shock. That's jus' funny. Others have compared a shock with a spring to a shock with no spring; yet, they still don't get the weight savings? Ok.

WP is taking their sweet time getting it right for production, and I like that.

Andrew & the crew are getting ACS dialed in, for us...soon.
nytsmaC wrote:
I get the weight savings Manny, I see the potential there and it looks trick as hell. Just questioning the 2lb number being thrown around. Maybe...
I get the weight savings Manny, I see the potential there and it looks trick as hell. Just questioning the 2lb number being thrown around. Maybe it is 2lbs lighter, I just don't understand how. Even if it's only 1lb lighter that's significant, I'm not putting it down.
My bad...I meant "in the BIG picture"...I've seen some crazy comments over these past few Months. Especially from the Debbie-Downers saying that they've see it all before, it'll never work or that its like the old Fox Air...funny.

If you go weigh your rear spring & then compare that to what appears to be a red "Aluminum Tube" in the pictures, here-in, the math will make sense when ya think about it.
Matt Fisher
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3/16/2015 9:44am
TX24 wrote:
I had always heard unsprung weight is weight passed the spring. So are springs unsprung weight? Guess not.
About half of the shock and spring are considered unsprung weight. Not nearly as important as something like axle weight, but when you're looking for every advantage possible, it's worth considering.
TX24
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3/16/2015 9:51am
keinz wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/03/16/84015/s1200_air.jpg[/img]


Thanks Keinz, that's what I was curious about.
TriRacer27
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3/16/2015 10:00am
I heard on shorty's PulpMX interview that he said WP is running lower pressure than traditional air suspension, which allows for better feel in the transition into the corners. So my intuition tells me they've accomplished this by making the shaft as large as possible. I'm probably wrong but can't wait to see what they do different because so far air doesn't seem to be all that popular.

BAMX
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3/16/2015 10:09am Edited Date/Time 3/16/2015 10:12am
TeamGreen wrote:
It IS much lighter. Other notables: some people have been comparing it to the Fox Shox Air Shock. That's jus' funny. Others have compared a shock...
It IS much lighter.

Other notables: some people have been comparing it to the Fox Shox Air Shock. That's jus' funny. Others have compared a shock with a spring to a shock with no spring; yet, they still don't get the weight savings? Ok.

WP is taking their sweet time getting it right for production, and I like that.

Andrew & the crew are getting ACS dialed in, for us...soon.
nytsmaC wrote:
I get the weight savings Manny, I see the potential there and it looks trick as hell. Just questioning the 2lb number being thrown around. Maybe...
I get the weight savings Manny, I see the potential there and it looks trick as hell. Just questioning the 2lb number being thrown around. Maybe it is 2lbs lighter, I just don't understand how. Even if it's only 1lb lighter that's significant, I'm not putting it down.
TeamGreen wrote:
My bad...I meant "in the BIG picture"...I've seen some crazy comments over these past few Months. Especially from the Debbie-Downers saying that they've see it all...
My bad...I meant "in the BIG picture"...I've seen some crazy comments over these past few Months. Especially from the Debbie-Downers saying that they've see it all before, it'll never work or that its like the old Fox Air...funny.

If you go weigh your rear spring & then compare that to what appears to be a red "Aluminum Tube" in the pictures, here-in, the math will make sense when ya think about it.
It looks like the shock and shaft are probably about the same maybe a little more. The savings is in the fact that you don't have a spring at all. I heard the new air forks are really good in comparison to the 4CS stuff. Has anyone else heard anything?
CR250Rider
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3/16/2015 10:40am
could they even use something like helium? Lighter than air? put it in every airtight compartment, tires etc..

just thinking outloud
3/16/2015 11:11am
ML512 wrote:
We can shoot it while it's on the bike, but we can't shoot it while the seat is off and see the system they use to...
We can shoot it while it's on the bike, but we can't shoot it while the seat is off and see the system they use to fill it (I think there might be some sort of blow-off chamber for air expansion) or shoot it when it's off the bike. I don't think they will even attempt to remove it under the awning, they would probably take it inside of the truck to keep the peering eyes away.


so instead of bleeding air out of forks after a race, they bleed air in, well pump it up to the desired pressure

a question if you may: are they using plain ole air or nitrogen?




Mr Bean
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3/16/2015 11:14am
BAMX wrote:
It looks like the shock and shaft are probably about the same maybe a little more. The savings is in the fact that you don't have...
It looks like the shock and shaft are probably about the same maybe a little more. The savings is in the fact that you don't have a spring at all. I heard the new air forks are really good in comparison to the 4CS stuff. Has anyone else heard anything?
I've heard for years that WP was coming out with a decent suspension.

I'm still waiting.
3/16/2015 11:23am
TX24 wrote:
I had always heard unsprung weight is weight passed the spring. So are springs unsprung weight? Guess not.
apparently about half is and half isnt

so with the air spring, i guess it only helps with half the spring weight related to un sprung weight?



3/16/2015 11:26am
CR250Rider wrote:
could they even use something like helium? Lighter than air? put it in every airtight compartment, tires etc..

just thinking outloud
old bmx bike frame tech....lol.........gimickery

forgotten who did it

someone will know
tek14
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3/16/2015 11:38am
MTB bikes have many type of air-shocks in them. Some have even handle-bar connection to make it hard/softer.
TX24
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3/16/2015 11:53am
In a video I saw with some of the Ktm techs, it's just air.
Bruce372
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3/16/2015 11:58am
BAMX wrote:
It looks like the shock and shaft are probably about the same maybe a little more. The savings is in the fact that you don't have...
It looks like the shock and shaft are probably about the same maybe a little more. The savings is in the fact that you don't have a spring at all. I heard the new air forks are really good in comparison to the 4CS stuff. Has anyone else heard anything?
Mr Bean wrote:
I've heard for years that WP was coming out with a decent suspension.

I'm still waiting.
LOL!!!!!
BobPA
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3/16/2015 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2015 12:07pm
tek14 wrote:
MTB bikes have many type of air-shocks in them. Some have even handle-bar connection to make it hard/softer.
I saw these in person and are slicker than owl shit. Pricey though. 40-120 psi I think

TeamGreen
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3/16/2015 12:59pm
BAMX wrote:
It looks like the shock and shaft are probably about the same maybe a little more. The savings is in the fact that you don't have...
It looks like the shock and shaft are probably about the same maybe a little more. The savings is in the fact that you don't have a spring at all. I heard the new air forks are really good in comparison to the 4CS stuff. Has anyone else heard anything?
Mr Bean wrote:
I've heard for years that WP was coming out with a decent suspension.

I'm still waiting.
Bruce372 wrote:
LOL!!!!!
Funny thing...

'13-'14 KTM450SXF Std Chassis
'13-'14 Bladder Fork
'14.5 Factory Edition shock & linkage (long shock/FE link)
Steering is .5 mm off-set back (races) with Stock '14 clamps (black).

Getting it right? Was just like ALL my other bikes...but, yes, the WP stuff is a little bit different.

I had the suspension revalved, by WP in this case, and proceeded to go ride and start making adjustments. The forks were set towards the stiffer end of my range and took a while to break-in; also, I noticed that I have to "neutralize" the bladder pressure when I 1st go out on the track (I feed the frt end a good thump on a landing or whoop/kicker face) My Compression is at the softer end of the setting-range: 3-5 in from Full-Soft. Rebound is always within 4-5 clicks of the Middle of the range (depending on the track: more for Sand & less for Tighter-kicker). They're sprung slightly stiffer than I was previously "used to"; however, when I quit bein' a bitch and ATTACKED?

Awesome!

In the rear: The shock has been epic ever since the revalve & change to FE link. 3-6 mm adjustment changes the turn-in/handling from "RM 125" to "KX450F" as needed. I run my ride height a little low (compared to typical) & adjust Rebound & HS Comp as needed. Caselli was SUPER influential in my understanding of "how" to set the KTM up for diffeent Terrain & Speeds. Thanks Kurt!

This bike is a collection of race and test parts and it works really, really well for me; and, let's recall...I'm ALL ABOUT THE KX450F! Yet, I've truly found an appreciation for the KTM's ability to respond better than most bikes to ride height adjustments and hi-speed rebound is rather critical, too.

The harder thngs for me to adapt to on the KTM where:

1. Hanging on to the bike/squeezing with my legs: there are no Al.mFrame rails to squeeze. I had to learn to use my lower legs to squeeze the bike.

2. Hanging off the bike in sand and soft terrain. You can learn a lot just by watching AC222 or AS29!

3. These bikes will turn like a 2-stroke Suzuki; if, you take the time to SET IT UP...&, of-course, find YOUR settings.

On the crazy side of things...I've got this bike so "down to a science" that I'm well on my way to "turning it white" & staying on this same set-up thru '15; but, there's a problem...

I was sharing this info (& my "stoke" on having the bike perfect) with a friend that's been riding the new bike for a while & he said...

"Wait til you try the new bike!"

Damn.
WhipMeister
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3/16/2015 1:43pm
CR250Rider wrote:
could they even use something like helium? Lighter than air? put it in every airtight compartment, tires etc..

just thinking outloud
In the olden days, we used nitrogen in our Fox Airshox. Doesn't expand under heat load.

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