Air Fork Question

MtnBoy
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Edited Date/Time 2/10/2013 9:33pm
On the production air forks that come on a bike we can buy, if you blow a seal, does all the air leak out and they collapse? So essentially a leaky seal equals no more riding? If so that's lame.

I've heard it mentioned several places, just curious.
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SwapperMX
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1/22/2013 9:04pm
From all reports, they dont collapse completely and leave the front guard sitting against the tyre, but they definitely put an early end to your day.
MtnBoy
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1/22/2013 9:14pm
Wow, I'm having a hard time seeing how these are "better" for the sport, that's pretty ridiculous.
Tim507
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1/22/2013 9:32pm
MtnBoy wrote:
Wow, I'm having a hard time seeing how these are "better" for the sport, that's pretty ridiculous.
It may not be good for the sport...but it is good for the industry.
RM127
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1/22/2013 9:42pm Edited Date/Time 1/22/2013 9:44pm
A thought, how would it feel mixing one air fork and one spring?

Like a left PSF KYB and a right SSS KYB.........Kinda like SSF

The Shop

SwapperMX
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1/22/2013 9:48pm
The only thing I can see, is that it aint even good for the industry, but more so for the manufacturers only. A lot cheaper to manufacture is the only reason I can see for doing it. I personally dont think they are pushing the technological envelope by "developing" these air forks. They are just saving a whole bunch of money. If they had truly "developed" these forks, I dont think they would still be using the same oil seal in a set of air forks as what was found in previous spring forks. Several other flaws in these forks scream "budget build"
holeshot100
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1/22/2013 10:05pm
I know of a new Honda with about 50 hours on it without a single issue. The suspension performs better than last years suspension also. However almost all the hours are SX, and not dealing with a lot of mud or dirt constantly getting on the fork tubes..
mxtinter
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Menifee, CA US
1/22/2013 11:03pm
MtnBoy wrote:
Wow, I'm having a hard time seeing how these are "better" for the sport, that's pretty ridiculous.
For a MX Vacation bike rental company, air is great. Now we can adjust the spring rate in seconds. In 1 week we might have a 140 lbs rider 1 day and a 220 rider the next day on the same bike. We purchase bikes every year and air performs far better stock (out of the box) then previous years.
gjbruny
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1/22/2013 11:42pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2013 12:15am
think it is also a weight thing....... 4 strokes are about as light as they can possibly get without using a bunch of exotic metals and make the price of bikes become out of reach for the average rider. couple that with the fact that more and more weekend warrior guys are playing with light 2 strokes again and realizing just how heavy 4 strokes are by comparison.

if KTM gets their air shock right, then throws on a set of air forks, that could save 6-9lbs total............ imagine how much money you would have to throw at a bike prior to pneumatic suspension to drop 6-9lbs. KTM could put LiPo batteries in their bikes for another 3lb savings as stock items and have the lightest bikes on the market while still having the only E-start........... or honda could drop 9lbs and have the weight of their 450 not too far out of the realm of a 250 2 stroke. The first company to build a sub-235lb curb weight 450 will be king (till everyone else follows suit)...... and they know it. honda could have a real chance if the air shock thing works.


i think air suspension can be a good thing for everyone and make our bikes very tunable for riders of all weights without having to spend a ton of money or have to get into the suspension internals............... BUT.............. air shocks/forks are in their infancywith current suspension design and there will be some bugs that need to be worked out (yes i know it has been on bikes for decades). i wouldn't trust them for offroad just yet (though i hope the first generation holds up well)...... i'll give it a year or two to see how they hold up for guys.
ando
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1/23/2013 12:43am
May be an example of a component that is suitable for racing but not suitable for production bikes.

I think this will become more common, eventually leading to a divergence between pro racing machines and what is made on the production line for public use (like road bikes).
Jakes Dad
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1/23/2013 3:17am
One side has components built in that IMHO tie it together creating a stiffer unit, the other side not so much. Place each fork in a jig and apply equal force to measure deflection, what say you? I say different deflections, now apply this to the stresses of hard cornering under SX conditions. hmmmm
SwapperMX
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1/23/2013 3:22am
mxtinter wrote:
For a MX Vacation bike rental company, air is great. Now we can adjust the spring rate in seconds. In 1 week we might have a...
For a MX Vacation bike rental company, air is great. Now we can adjust the spring rate in seconds. In 1 week we might have a 140 lbs rider 1 day and a 220 rider the next day on the same bike. We purchase bikes every year and air performs far better stock (out of the box) then previous years.
Did you guys touch the valving on the standard forks?? Those air forks on both the kawi's and honda's define midstroke harshness !!
MtnBoy
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1/23/2013 7:30am
I know of a new Honda with about 50 hours on it without a single issue. The suspension performs better than last years suspension also. However...
I know of a new Honda with about 50 hours on it without a single issue. The suspension performs better than last years suspension also. However almost all the hours are SX, and not dealing with a lot of mud or dirt constantly getting on the fork tubes..
Exactly...I'm sure they are great for Supercross...but what about the rest of us? Shouldn't bikes be built to fit the 99%, not alienate them?

Go check out a local riding spot on a busy weekend and walk around and see how many guys are riding with leaky/blown seals...now imagine if all of those guys couldn't ride because of that....is it gonna help the sport grow?

What we consider "progess" sometimes blows my mind.
KlootZak
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1/23/2013 7:53am Edited Date/Time 1/23/2013 7:59am
Some people here thinks a horse is still the best way to go from city A to city B Blink
mx317
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1/23/2013 8:13am
SwapperMX wrote:
The only thing I can see, is that it aint even good for the industry, but more so for the manufacturers only. A lot cheaper to...
The only thing I can see, is that it aint even good for the industry, but more so for the manufacturers only. A lot cheaper to manufacture is the only reason I can see for doing it. I personally dont think they are pushing the technological envelope by "developing" these air forks. They are just saving a whole bunch of money. If they had truly "developed" these forks, I dont think they would still be using the same oil seal in a set of air forks as what was found in previous spring forks. Several other flaws in these forks scream "budget build"
They are not using the same fork seal in the 2013 KX450F that they used in past models, not sure about the Honda.
mxtinter
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1/23/2013 8:19am
mxtinter wrote:
For a MX Vacation bike rental company, air is great. Now we can adjust the spring rate in seconds. In 1 week we might have a...
For a MX Vacation bike rental company, air is great. Now we can adjust the spring rate in seconds. In 1 week we might have a 140 lbs rider 1 day and a 220 rider the next day on the same bike. We purchase bikes every year and air performs far better stock (out of the box) then previous years.
SwapperMX wrote:
Did you guys touch the valving on the standard forks?? Those air forks on both the kawi's and honda's define midstroke harshness !!
We run rental bikes completely stock.
1/23/2013 9:08am
I'm curious how these forks will pan out, especially in the sloppy mud of the northeast in early spring.

I've heard these leak oil before air. With spring forks even with a leaking seal they still hold pressure. But it is obviously much lower pressure, although it does increase when the fork is compressed.

My guess is that everybody will get good at "seal cleaning", Now if I get a leaky seal I usually just race it as-is and rebuild them on Monday, since it's usually due for a rebuild anyway. With air forks I would definitely do my best to clean them with a tear-off or a Sealmate type tool before heading to the starting gate.
mx317
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1/23/2013 10:08am
I bought one of the Risk Racing seal cleaning tools to keep in my race box just in case.
makita124
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1/26/2013 8:51am
dont use a skf seal in these air forks. only use a kxf450 seal to guarantee no leakage. dont even use the skf seals. sum people have no idea...
jbollinger0
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2/9/2013 4:53pm
I know of a new Honda with about 50 hours on it without a single issue. The suspension performs better than last years suspension also. However...
I know of a new Honda with about 50 hours on it without a single issue. The suspension performs better than last years suspension also. However almost all the hours are SX, and not dealing with a lot of mud or dirt constantly getting on the fork tubes..
MtnBoy wrote:
Exactly...I'm sure they are great for Supercross...but what about the rest of us? Shouldn't bikes be built to fit the 99%, not alienate them? Go check...
Exactly...I'm sure they are great for Supercross...but what about the rest of us? Shouldn't bikes be built to fit the 99%, not alienate them?

Go check out a local riding spot on a busy weekend and walk around and see how many guys are riding with leaky/blown seals...now imagine if all of those guys couldn't ride because of that....is it gonna help the sport grow?

What we consider "progess" sometimes blows my mind.
I have a 2013 crf450 and yes I had to still revalve it from the factory same with the shock as all production bikes come with a shim stack upwards of 40 its crazy. I had leaky seals and my forks did not collapse i rode MX tracks with out a problem. the oil leaks out not the air. the only time ive seen em leak air is if you tear the seal itself. if you dent your tube well your sol regardless of what your running. I have about 30 hours now since the new revalve with no problems. Oh dont forget to greaase all your bearings as the factory does not do it.
jbollinger0
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2/9/2013 4:55pm
oh and I rode the tracks for 2 weeks with those leaky seals....... i think everyone is worried for nothing PSF forks are better IMO still working on data aquisiton to prove it.
sean
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2/9/2013 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2013 8:27pm
I drive a semi truck that hauls 80000 pounds and has air suspension, as all semi trucks do.
Travis_Hudson
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2/9/2013 8:42pm
Chad reed on the pulp mx show had some long pauses when they asked if the air fork was better.........he never answered the question directly, he just kept referring to them as "different" and they are cheaper to make.
captmoto
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2/9/2013 10:26pm
I was told by a suspension guy that KYB rushed them to production where the Showa is a still a factory fork, way more refined. They will get figured out but for me and I think for most of us the air fork is hype/overkill.
gjbruny
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2/9/2013 11:00pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2013 11:01pm
chad's comment on the post race interview tonight "i'm searching for feel in the front end and when i push it thats what happens" was code for "i hate this fu%$@ fork."

bet he wishes he was in short's situation right now like he was 2 years ago....... where if he didn't like something, he had the choice to change it.

RV is not the normal RV this year either........ love how RC and emig were ripping on dunge's shock failure last week but fail to forget that these two are running air forks....... and are doing....... well......... less than stellar.
Travis_Hudson
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2/9/2013 11:04pm
captmoto wrote:
I was told by a suspension guy that KYB rushed them to production where the Showa is a still a factory fork, way more refined. They...
I was told by a suspension guy that KYB rushed them to production where the Showa is a still a factory fork, way more refined. They will get figured out but for me and I think for most of us the air fork is hype/overkill.
Yep.
mx317
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2/10/2013 6:24am
20 hours on mine (2013 KX450F) with no problems so far. I like the fact that I can go up or down on the PSI for different tracks. I ride one track with a couple of steep downhills that really load the front and I go up a little there. I know the Showa's SFF Airs are different that the productions KYB air, but hasn't seem to have hurt Millsaps when he switched to them.
TerryK
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2/10/2013 7:12am
They are doing anything they can to get the weight down on those pigs because people are starting to remember how light and fun two strokes are.
jbollinger0
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2/10/2013 9:31pm
well i got my air forks completely dialed in today it seems they rise in psi up to 4 psi after riding for about 30 minutes so since i like mine at 35 psi i set them to 31 cold about 2 laps they stiffen up to where i need them. I also run the compression at 11 clicks out and 19 clicks out on the rebound. 60 hours now running these forks and tuning them and i have not had the front wash out at all. this includes mx tracks and single track both sand mud and hard pack. I am running the dunlop mx51 fa geomax comes stock with the bike. I usually run the michellin starcross mh in the back and ms in the front.
jbollinger0
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2/10/2013 9:33pm
Oh I work for Trackside Technology and we have developed a way to fine tune your rebound and compression while you ride.
If you are interested look us up or email us Tracksidetech.net

Thanks

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