After Keefer's 1st 450 shootout day they seem to think the RMZ rear shock is ok per his podcast.

ML512
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ML512 9/19/2017 5:22pm
9/19/2017 5:22pm
kwenske321 wrote:
Yo ML, Keeper mentioned the RMZ will likely have e-start next year, and that manufacturers are likely testing the 2019 models presently. Do you foresee Suzuki...
Yo ML,

Keeper mentioned the RMZ will likely have e-start next year, and that manufacturers are likely testing the 2019 models presently. Do you foresee Suzuki dropping a entirely new motor in this chassis in the next 2 years?
When I was in Japan this year I fielded that question to a very vague answer...they finally answered with probably 2020...

It could come sooner, but it'll need to use the starter setup off the RM-Z450X...which is pretty heavy. They'll put on even more weight if they do that and I'm curious what battery they will use.

If they pull it off for 2019, the whole field will have them as Kawasaki will come with it as well.

I'll be honest, I'd rather see Suzuki skip E-start in '19 if it means we got an all-new, lighter engine that was designed for E-Start in 2020.
Permeance_Flux 9/19/2017 5:22pm
9/19/2017 5:22pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
But if you listen to the RMZ450 podcast that he did before the shootout he said the RMZ was a better bike than the 17.
I should clarify that those were his comments regarding the cornering ability. And that podcast you speak of he even says it feels heavier than the 17 model.
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Cashmore 9/19/2017 5:35pm
9/19/2017 5:35pm
ML512 wrote:
When I was in Japan this year I fielded that question to a very vague answer...they finally answered with probably 2020... It could come sooner, but...
When I was in Japan this year I fielded that question to a very vague answer...they finally answered with probably 2020...

It could come sooner, but it'll need to use the starter setup off the RM-Z450X...which is pretty heavy. They'll put on even more weight if they do that and I'm curious what battery they will use.

If they pull it off for 2019, the whole field will have them as Kawasaki will come with it as well.

I'll be honest, I'd rather see Suzuki skip E-start in '19 if it means we got an all-new, lighter engine that was designed for E-Start in 2020.
New kawi for 2019?
ML512
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ML512 9/19/2017 5:44pm
9/19/2017 5:44pm
Cashmore wrote:
New kawi for 2019?
There are three new 450s in 2019...with four new 250Fs.

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racinstation
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racinstation 9/19/2017 6:26pm
9/19/2017 6:26pm
KTM, Husky, Kawi 450............Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, Husky 250Fs.
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rjg 9/19/2017 7:18pm
9/19/2017 7:18pm
racinstation wrote:
KTM, Husky, Kawi 450............Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, Husky 250Fs.
Speaking of bike weight, it would be cool for ktm to get even lighter. Then have a sliding weight on the frame to bring it back up to racing series weight limit and another tuning option.
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kiwifan 9/19/2017 7:53pm
9/19/2017 7:53pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2017 7:54pm
jtiger12 wrote:
Kind of surprising how all over the board these rankings are..
probably because it is how close all the bikes in reality are...
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Jrewing 9/19/2017 8:38pm
9/19/2017 8:38pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2017 8:38pm
The shootout winners are the people that can afford new bikes. Or old 125's for that matter
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bvm111 9/19/2017 10:02pm
9/19/2017 10:02pm Edited Date/Time 9/19/2017 10:03pm
Cashmore wrote:
New kawi for 2019?
ML512 wrote:
There are three new 450s in 2019...with four new 250Fs.
Michael,

Please tell me the 19 KX450 will have a spring fork! I could give 2 you know what's about the E start as my 16 starts super easy as it is and I'm not racing for a championship ever in my life so who needs it?!
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PRM31 9/20/2017 3:26am
9/20/2017 3:26am
In a sense, I see Keefer's evaluation as an extension of ML's. Different track perhaps, but it's just different riders offering input on each bike. A method I really like by the way. Looking forward to hearing how the comments differ with the same riders but on a different style track.
Dinosaur Media 9/20/2017 6:45am
9/20/2017 6:45am
With respect to Keefer, I did not like how he steered the interviews and constsntly interjected his own opinions when asking for riders' feedback. I was saying to myself...dammit man just let them speak so whe hear what they have to say. Anyone else pick up on that?

Different tracks...different riders...the same general consensus thus far between the two protocols Honda and the Austrian/Swedish machines near the front. Check.
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gpracer36 9/20/2017 8:26am
9/20/2017 8:26am
Dinosaur Media wrote:
With respect to Keefer, I did not like how he steered the interviews and constsntly interjected his own opinions when asking for riders' feedback. I was...
With respect to Keefer, I did not like how he steered the interviews and constsntly interjected his own opinions when asking for riders' feedback. I was saying to myself...dammit man just let them speak so whe hear what they have to say. Anyone else pick up on that?

Different tracks...different riders...the same general consensus thus far between the two protocols Honda and the Austrian/Swedish machines near the front. Check.
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was the only thing I didn't like. Just ask the question and let them answer.
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Buckland 9/20/2017 8:36am
9/20/2017 8:36am
gpracer36 wrote:
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was...
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was the only thing I didn't like. Just ask the question and let them answer.
Perhaps it was more to get the terminology that more people understand, so there is no confusion over the diction if he knew they were describing something that commonly goes by another name?

Also, we don't know if he told them before that he intended to do so, and told them to adamantly disagree if they felt he was trying to put words in their mouths?
tempura
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tempura 9/20/2017 8:38am
9/20/2017 8:38am
Dinosaur Media wrote:
With respect to Keefer, I did not like how he steered the interviews and constsntly interjected his own opinions when asking for riders' feedback. I was...
With respect to Keefer, I did not like how he steered the interviews and constsntly interjected his own opinions when asking for riders' feedback. I was saying to myself...dammit man just let them speak so whe hear what they have to say. Anyone else pick up on that?

Different tracks...different riders...the same general consensus thus far between the two protocols Honda and the Austrian/Swedish machines near the front. Check.
gpracer36 wrote:
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was...
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was the only thing I didn't like. Just ask the question and let them answer.
Stood out to me as well.
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Myke 9/20/2017 9:19am
9/20/2017 9:19am
gpracer36 wrote:
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was...
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was the only thing I didn't like. Just ask the question and let them answer.
Buckland wrote:
Perhaps it was more to get the terminology that more people understand, so there is no confusion over the diction if he knew they were describing...
Perhaps it was more to get the terminology that more people understand, so there is no confusion over the diction if he knew they were describing something that commonly goes by another name?

Also, we don't know if he told them before that he intended to do so, and told them to adamantly disagree if they felt he was trying to put words in their mouths?
This is what I thought as well. Whenever he added discription it always seemed that it was to help explain what the tester was already trying to say. I never got the feelng that he was directing them to say certain things about certain bikes.

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Moto520 9/20/2017 9:47am
9/20/2017 9:47am
I thought it was great!
coastlinecascot 9/20/2017 10:28am
9/20/2017 10:28am
Just listens to keefers first day shootout on stitcher..good job!!!!! Excellent questions and test riders input
jorgechavez 9/20/2017 11:06am
9/20/2017 11:06am
gpracer36 wrote:
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was...
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was the only thing I didn't like. Just ask the question and let them answer.
Buckland wrote:
Perhaps it was more to get the terminology that more people understand, so there is no confusion over the diction if he knew they were describing...
Perhaps it was more to get the terminology that more people understand, so there is no confusion over the diction if he knew they were describing something that commonly goes by another name?

Also, we don't know if he told them before that he intended to do so, and told them to adamantly disagree if they felt he was trying to put words in their mouths?
Myke wrote:
This is what I thought as well. Whenever he added discription it always seemed that it was to help explain what the tester was already trying...
This is what I thought as well. Whenever he added discription it always seemed that it was to help explain what the tester was already trying to say. I never got the feelng that he was directing them to say certain things about certain bikes.

I agree, seems like he just wanted people to know what the guys were saying by using terminology we're a bit used to in Keefer's podcast. I never really felt he was directing them in anyway, more so just helping them explain their thoughts.

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miketherider 9/20/2017 11:20am
9/20/2017 11:20am
To be fair, I ride a Yamaha with the KYB SSS and have dealt with the same sensation of the front wanting to "climb out" out of the rut or get that "pointy " feeling. I'm not sure if it's a chassis flaw on Yamaha's part or just a nature of those forks. I've played a little with sag and the fork height and have made it better, but I still fight that feeling on occasion, especially longer ruts or those with not much to lean on.

I don't think it's a "let's rag on the Yamaha," it's just a trait flaw they all seem cursed with.
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IceMan446 9/20/2017 12:02pm
9/20/2017 12:02pm
gpracer36 wrote:
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was...
agree 100%. It was obvious to me he would lead the interview towards an answer that he wanted to hear. Mainly on the YZF. It was the only thing I didn't like. Just ask the question and let them answer.
Buckland wrote:
Perhaps it was more to get the terminology that more people understand, so there is no confusion over the diction if he knew they were describing...
Perhaps it was more to get the terminology that more people understand, so there is no confusion over the diction if he knew they were describing something that commonly goes by another name?

Also, we don't know if he told them before that he intended to do so, and told them to adamantly disagree if they felt he was trying to put words in their mouths?
If anyone has listened to his suspension podcast, there are terms every manufacture and tester uses to explain the bike and what it is doing.

So after he had that podcast he said he would use those same terms when explaining each bike so everything is the same across the board.

Didn't sound like he was directing the interview, more trying to use the correct terminology to explain the bike and what it was or was not doing.
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mattyhamz2 9/20/2017 1:23pm
9/20/2017 1:23pm
miketherider wrote:
To be fair, I ride a Yamaha with the KYB SSS and have dealt with the same sensation of the front wanting to "climb out" out...
To be fair, I ride a Yamaha with the KYB SSS and have dealt with the same sensation of the front wanting to "climb out" out of the rut or get that "pointy " feeling. I'm not sure if it's a chassis flaw on Yamaha's part or just a nature of those forks. I've played a little with sag and the fork height and have made it better, but I still fight that feeling on occasion, especially longer ruts or those with not much to lean on.

I don't think it's a "let's rag on the Yamaha," it's just a trait flaw they all seem cursed with.
If you get a chance, send your stuff to Enzo. I have a 2014 YZ450 and struggled a little bit with that feeling. I changed the front tire and bars which helped a lot, but then last December, I sent my suspension to enzo and that feeling is gone!
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tobz 9/20/2017 9:38pm
9/20/2017 9:38pm
Dinosaur Media wrote:
With respect to Keefer, I did not like how he steered the interviews and constsntly interjected his own opinions when asking for riders' feedback. I was...
With respect to Keefer, I did not like how he steered the interviews and constsntly interjected his own opinions when asking for riders' feedback. I was saying to myself...dammit man just let them speak so whe hear what they have to say. Anyone else pick up on that?

Different tracks...different riders...the same general consensus thus far between the two protocols Honda and the Austrian/Swedish machines near the front. Check.
They're not his opinions he's directing towards, he's reading the written notes of the rider he's speaking to and asking the appropriate question to keep the convo moving.
Myke
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Myke 9/20/2017 10:10pm
9/20/2017 10:10pm
Surprised no one has brought up the Harbor Freight KXF comment yet.I found that funny and back in the 90's it was actually true.
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JLO42 9/20/2017 10:27pm
9/20/2017 10:27pm
Myke wrote:
Surprised no one has brought up the Harbor Freight KXF comment yet.I found that funny and back in the 90's it was actually true.
That was pretty funny.
mark911
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mark911 9/21/2017 12:09am
9/21/2017 12:09am
Other than Bowers, I didn't get much from most of the interviews. They just didn't articulate what they were feeling very well. Maybe it was the pressure of the one-on-one interview format or the lack of a common dictionary of terms. To be fair, although everyone instinctively knows if they feel good/bad on a bike, its very difficult for most to explain exactly why.

On the other hand, Bowers knew exactly what he likes and expects in a bike and did a good job comparing and contrasting the various brands with respect to those preferences. However, that doesn't necessarily make him right (unless you like the same characteristic he does).

My point is, to make these shootouts meaningful you not only need a diverse group of self aware testers with excellent communication skills but ALSO an audience with equal self awareness.
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JackLHyde 9/21/2017 2:09am
9/21/2017 2:09am
I haven't come far yet but caught that. I tend to agree. My brother just sold his KX, that thing rattled, the engine sounded like a bag of bolts, the complete bike looked like junk after only a couple of hours. With RaceTech saying there's a big variance of power output from bike to bike at Kawi, I would not touch those bikes anytime soon.
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racer495a 9/21/2017 6:32am
9/21/2017 6:32am
Myke wrote:
Surprised no one has brought up the Harbor Freight KXF comment yet.I found that funny and back in the 90's it was actually true.
JLO42 wrote:
That was pretty funny.
It's true the kawi is incomplete compared to KTM and others. Levers rattle in a couple hours, pegs dull up, black paint wears off everywhere, chain is crap, chain guide even worse, muffler needs upgrade, graphics fly off, and I'm sure I"m missing more.
racingfortheson 9/21/2017 6:32am
9/21/2017 6:32am
752dad wrote:
I apologize in advance ML, my mom was an English teacher, it's Keefer and I.

KC
Growing up with 2 English teacher I know where you are coming from, but it isn't a rule in English. It is a courtesy. When I found this out, it rocked my world. I asked and they both told me, "Well, it's not a rule, but it is nice." So I spent my whole life being corrected, "It's 'Him and I' say it right son" for no reason. Lol
Dirty Points 9/21/2017 6:54am
9/21/2017 6:54am Edited Date/Time 9/21/2017 6:58am
racingfortheson wrote:
Growing up with 2 English teacher I know where you are coming from, but it isn't a rule in English. It is a courtesy. When I...
Growing up with 2 English teacher I know where you are coming from, but it isn't a rule in English. It is a courtesy. When I found this out, it rocked my world. I asked and they both told me, "Well, it's not a rule, but it is nice." So I spent my whole life being corrected, "It's 'Him and I' say it right son" for no reason. Lol
It's not the courtesy of including the other person first in order that is the cause for correction, it's the use of "Me" as one of the subjects in "me and Keefer were talking" . Take away the second subject and re-conjugate the verb and you see the problem: "Me was talking..."
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Dragoo168 9/21/2017 7:06am
9/21/2017 7:06am
gpracer36 wrote:
I think its cool ML lets guys break down another sites shootout. Thanks
ML512 wrote:
A Shootout is just opinion and I love discussing testing itself...that's why me and Keefer were talking about doing a podcast about it. No one is...
A Shootout is just opinion and I love discussing testing itself...that's why me and Keefer were talking about doing a podcast about it. No one is right or wrong if they give their honest opinion. Ultimately we do Shootouts to give the end reader more info about the bikes they're looking at buying.
Richard Tease II wrote:
ML
Your last sentence is the most important thing to consider. People need to implant that sentence in their heads when reading a shootout.
Another thing to be said is that they are all great bikes, regardless of color or shootout results. There are always going to be things that stand out that differs one from another, but the thing to note is that they are being tested "Out of the box";, and ultimately if you choose the one that best fits you, there are also endless products and services these days that can dial the bike in to be what you want.

Post a reply to: After Keefer's 1st 450 shootout day they seem to think the RMZ rear shock is ok per his podcast.