4T versus 2T...the "Cost" argument.

TeamGreen
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TeamGreen
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 5:20am
For stroke oil that meets the SH/SJ Service Rating Requirement:
(ALL prices current in Northern California)

Castrol 4T
$4.29 (at Kragens)

Kawasaki 4T motor-oil
$5.48 (Kawi shop)

Honda 4T motor oil
$6.64 (Honda shop)

Motul 3000
$7.99 (Local "Tuner" Shop)

2 Stroke Trans-Oils:
(As mfg recm'd)

Honda HP Trans
$8.19 (Honda shop)

Bel-Ray Gear-Saver
$10.95 (Honda Sshop)

Now, would ya like to discuss the pre-mix?
Good oil...or not...it's an extra "Expense".

This is where someone tres to pick it all apart....

"What about oil filters?"

Every THIRD oil change (Go ahead, argue with the mfg schedules)

And I'll reply: "What about Rings, Gaskets and Clutches?" (I sponsor a few kids on 125s...and a kid on a 250)...

&..Let's not forget about the 2T Oil....!

The 4T's last longer, stay fresher and cost virtually NOTHING to maintain...valve adjustments are something you can do in the garage...jus' like changin' your clutch plates!

This is where ya tell me about the 250F that blew up for "no reason at all"...

Jus' like the 250 2T that seized for "no reason at all"...

Then, I can ask you why the new 2Ts cost so much when you keep tellin' me that they're "Soooo much simpler"....?

Yada, yada, yada....

Ride which ever one makes you happy and get over it.

It ALL costs money.

Now, which 2t to get?

I'm thinkin' the KTM 150...jus' too much fun!

|
neverwas
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neverwas 7/14/2010 10:42am
7/14/2010 10:42am
What does the "T" stand for?
2 troke vs 4troke
Racer92
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Racer92 7/14/2010 10:44am
7/14/2010 10:44am
Gear Saver? Just put Type-F ATM fluid in and fuggitaboutit.
Roscoe33
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Roscoe33 7/14/2010 10:54am
7/14/2010 10:54am
2 strokes you can fix trackside, 4 strokes you just leave trackside because your done for the day....

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Hank_Thrill
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Hank_Thrill 7/14/2010 10:58am
7/14/2010 10:58am
Roscoe33 wrote:
2 strokes you can fix trackside, 4 strokes you just leave trackside because your done for the day....
HAHA!!! I'm using that one from now on, hope ya don't mind!
jay_547
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jay_547 7/14/2010 11:05am
7/14/2010 11:05am
watched a 4t sieze saturday night over a tabletop. he just barely saved it.
JackLHyde
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JackLHyde 7/14/2010 11:07am
7/14/2010 11:07am
I can't stand the weekend warriors complaining about 4strokes, yet not having the balls to ride a 2stroke themself. It's all hypocritical to me.

I myself don't like riding 2strokes. Never have and never will.
Kinetic1
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Kinetic1 7/14/2010 11:24am
7/14/2010 11:24am
Hey Bobby? Where do I find this ATM fluid you speak of?Tongue
KAWboy14
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KAWboy14 7/14/2010 11:25am
7/14/2010 11:25am Edited Date/Time 7/14/2010 11:25am
if someone is worried about money....they shouldnt ride either one or go on vacation to vegas!
newmann
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newmann 7/14/2010 11:30am
7/14/2010 11:30am
2 Stroke oil is not an expense. It's a soothing therapeutic side effect that comes with the pleasure of owning a sweet sounding crisply jetted small bore lightweight motocross machine. Anything else and you are just fooling yourself. I've had the 250F's scatter and I'm done. Plus for me they are boring to ride. But then again I buy my bikes and don't make a living racing them.
yota
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yota 7/14/2010 11:44am
7/14/2010 11:44am
JackLHyde wrote:
I can't stand the weekend warriors complaining about 4strokes, yet not having the balls to ride a 2stroke themself. It's all hypocritical to me. I myself...
I can't stand the weekend warriors complaining about 4strokes, yet not having the balls to ride a 2stroke themself. It's all hypocritical to me.

I myself don't like riding 2strokes. Never have and never will.
stick to your XR200 then.
AceB
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AceB 7/14/2010 12:04pm
7/14/2010 12:04pm
one 4 stroke intake valve costs more than a piston kit on my YZ 250. We have a couple of both (2&4 strokes). My sons and I ride and race them week in and week out.

That said there is no way that maintenance on a 4 stroke costs less. I dont have any issues with your oil comparison except that we run good synthetic oil in the 4 strokes too that cost as much as anything you have listed on the 2 strokes.

We change oil using an hour meter. Basically every other ride on both 2 and 4's.
SIMX
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SIMX 7/14/2010 12:10pm
7/14/2010 12:10pm
Shell Rotella-T - Walmart $10 a gallon.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 7/14/2010 12:17pm
7/14/2010 12:17pm
newmann wrote:
2 Stroke oil is not an expense. It's a soothing therapeutic side effect that comes with the pleasure of owning a sweet sounding crisply jetted small...
2 Stroke oil is not an expense. It's a soothing therapeutic side effect that comes with the pleasure of owning a sweet sounding crisply jetted small bore lightweight motocross machine. Anything else and you are just fooling yourself. I've had the 250F's scatter and I'm done. Plus for me they are boring to ride. But then again I buy my bikes and don't make a living racing them.
That does it!

I'm not shelling out for your re-hab ANYMORE!

You've been sniffing 2 stroke fumes, again...haven't you?

Larry
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Larry 7/14/2010 12:44pm
7/14/2010 12:44pm
My son's KTM takes 700 cc's of trans. oil.
how much oil do those car engines hold?
Racer92
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Racer92 7/14/2010 12:49pm
7/14/2010 12:49pm
Kinetic1 wrote:
Hey Bobby? Where do I find this ATM fluid you speak of?Tongue
Automatic Transmission fluid.




Racer92
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Racer92 7/14/2010 12:52pm
7/14/2010 12:52pm
newmann wrote:
2 Stroke oil is not an expense. It's a soothing therapeutic side effect that comes with the pleasure of owning a sweet sounding crisply jetted small...
2 Stroke oil is not an expense. It's a soothing therapeutic side effect that comes with the pleasure of owning a sweet sounding crisply jetted small bore lightweight motocross machine. Anything else and you are just fooling yourself. I've had the 250F's scatter and I'm done. Plus for me they are boring to ride. But then again I buy my bikes and don't make a living racing them.
Newmann, we are gonna be at Rio at 9am sunday. Cmon out and smoke some skeeters with us.
newmann
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newmann 7/14/2010 1:00pm
7/14/2010 1:00pm
Racer92 wrote:
Newmann, we are gonna be at Rio at 9am sunday. Cmon out and smoke some skeeters with us.
I'll be somewhere between Oahu and Maui 9am Sunday. First real vacation with the wife in the last fifteen years. 25th Anniversary getaway trip. Rio and 2 smokes does sound fun though, maybe I'll cancel.....



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grover738
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grover738 7/14/2010 1:08pm
7/14/2010 1:08pm
SIMX wrote:
Shell Rotella-T - Walmart $10 a gallon.
That's what I run in my "4T" also. I buy filtron filters in bulk on eBay, about $3 / each. Keeps the costs down. I'd rather spend my $ on fresh rubber & suspension.

Racer92
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Racer92 7/14/2010 1:08pm
7/14/2010 1:08pm
newmann wrote:
I'll be somewhere between Oahu and Maui 9am Sunday. First real vacation with the wife in the last fifteen years. 25th Anniversary getaway trip. Rio and...
I'll be somewhere between Oahu and Maui 9am Sunday. First real vacation with the wife in the last fifteen years. 25th Anniversary getaway trip. Rio and 2 smokes does sound fun though, maybe I'll cancel.....



Great, you guys enjoy the well deserved change of scenery. We will be in the Yucatan a week from now overlooking the jungle from atop of El Castillo !

Yep, so far one RM250 and one YZ250 in our group. Looking for more smokers to help Danny run off them pesky Harris County drainage ditch skeeters!

You guys have a blast and take pics !
kaboom645 7/14/2010 8:05pm
7/14/2010 8:05pm
TeamGreen wrote:
For stroke oil that meets the SH/SJ Service Rating Requirement: (ALL prices current in Northern California) Castrol 4T $4.29 (at Kragens) Kawasaki 4T motor-oil $5.48 (Kawi...
For stroke oil that meets the SH/SJ Service Rating Requirement:
(ALL prices current in Northern California)

Castrol 4T
$4.29 (at Kragens)

Kawasaki 4T motor-oil
$5.48 (Kawi shop)

Honda 4T motor oil
$6.64 (Honda shop)

Motul 3000
$7.99 (Local "Tuner" Shop)

2 Stroke Trans-Oils:
(As mfg recm'd)

Honda HP Trans
$8.19 (Honda shop)

Bel-Ray Gear-Saver
$10.95 (Honda Sshop)

Now, would ya like to discuss the pre-mix?
Good oil...or not...it's an extra "Expense".

This is where someone tres to pick it all apart....

"What about oil filters?"

Every THIRD oil change (Go ahead, argue with the mfg schedules)

And I'll reply: "What about Rings, Gaskets and Clutches?" (I sponsor a few kids on 125s...and a kid on a 250)...

&..Let's not forget about the 2T Oil....!

The 4T's last longer, stay fresher and cost virtually NOTHING to maintain...valve adjustments are something you can do in the garage...jus' like changin' your clutch plates!

This is where ya tell me about the 250F that blew up for "no reason at all"...

Jus' like the 250 2T that seized for "no reason at all"...

Then, I can ask you why the new 2Ts cost so much when you keep tellin' me that they're "Soooo much simpler"....?

Yada, yada, yada....

Ride which ever one makes you happy and get over it.

It ALL costs money.

Now, which 2t to get?

I'm thinkin' the KTM 150...jus' too much fun!

I ran amsoil in my 4 stroke costing me a little over $10 per oil change.. add into that a new oil filter every oil change( $10).. The bike got an oil/filter change every ride..servicing air filters on both 2 and 4 strokes is the same. On my current 2 stroke I change the trans fluid every ride and it costs me $8 for belray gear saver. I also run maxima 927 for premix that costs me $7.50/pt which mixes 5 gallons and usually lasts 1 day of riding. That makes the 2 stroke exactly $4.50 per day of riding cheaper to own.. The 4 stroke uses a little less gas per day of riding so I consider both bikes a wash in day to day cost.

What seperates the cost of ownership is the cost of replacement parts. I currently ride a KTM, but lets compare the replacement parts costs of a YZ450f and yYZ 250 smoker for comparison. Both bikes have a 5 race recommended interval for top end servicing( even though both bikes can go much longer). I am using this site http://www.yamahapart.com/ for price comparisons.

YZ250:
piston..........................................$52.75
rings............................................$21.77
wrist pin.......................................$11.71
wristpin bearing........................$11.06
circlips...................................(2)@ $2.36 ea.
Total..............................................$102.01

YZ450f
Top end assembly( includes piston, rings, wrist pin, wristpin bearing, and circlips)...$123.70

This is just top end replacement( normal maintenence).. What happens if you blow the bike up?Assuming a catastrophic engine failure on the 2 stroke it will likely cost you a cylinder, and a crank. Those parts cost you $253 for the crank assy, and $422 for the cylinder.$675 and you are back on the track

On the 4 stroke, you have not only a cylinder and crank to buy, but most likely cams, valves and possibly a head. Also when a 4 stroke lets go, it usually sends the rod through the transmission, breaking and destroying alot of parts in the transmission.. When my 09 yz450 let go on the 3rd ride, it broke one side of the cylinder head off, and sent the rod through the transmission.. It cost me almost $4300 to have the engine replaced
MX7MX
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MX7MX 7/14/2010 8:21pm
7/14/2010 8:21pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2010 8:24pm
My yz450 went a total of 4 years till the day I sold it with ZERO problems, a friend bought it and rode it close to 2 years till he sold it with ZERO problems. Say what you want, but no 2 stroke I ever owned was that reliable. Maybe I'm one of the "lucky" ones. Either way, nostalgia is one thing if your just a die hard 2 stroke fanatic. I love my C6 Vette but other vette enthusiasts wouldn't own anything except the C3s and 4's. To each their own, but I'd buy and ride either bike. I just choose now not to dislike either one, because both have their place and both have that certain something that makes them appealing to an individual.



If I was buying a new bike tomorrow, it'd be a 4 stroke. Would I own a 2 stroke? Absolutely. Its all preference. Nostalgia plays the largest role in this for the majority. Some like the challenge of having to really "RIDE" the bike (2 stroke) and some like the ease of the bike doing most of the work (4 stroke). To each their own! I used to be the biggest anti-2stroke person on this board. Now I just accept each, as they both share the same quality....putting a smile on our faces, regardless of which makes you happier. If I can bury this argument, surely the rest of us can?
Crush
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Crush 7/14/2010 8:24pm
7/14/2010 8:24pm
kaboom645 wrote:
I ran amsoil in my 4 stroke costing me a little over $10 per oil change.. add into that a new oil filter every oil change(...
I ran amsoil in my 4 stroke costing me a little over $10 per oil change.. add into that a new oil filter every oil change( $10).. The bike got an oil/filter change every ride..servicing air filters on both 2 and 4 strokes is the same. On my current 2 stroke I change the trans fluid every ride and it costs me $8 for belray gear saver. I also run maxima 927 for premix that costs me $7.50/pt which mixes 5 gallons and usually lasts 1 day of riding. That makes the 2 stroke exactly $4.50 per day of riding cheaper to own.. The 4 stroke uses a little less gas per day of riding so I consider both bikes a wash in day to day cost.

What seperates the cost of ownership is the cost of replacement parts. I currently ride a KTM, but lets compare the replacement parts costs of a YZ450f and yYZ 250 smoker for comparison. Both bikes have a 5 race recommended interval for top end servicing( even though both bikes can go much longer). I am using this site http://www.yamahapart.com/ for price comparisons.

YZ250:
piston..........................................$52.75
rings............................................$21.77
wrist pin.......................................$11.71
wristpin bearing........................$11.06
circlips...................................(2)@ $2.36 ea.
Total..............................................$102.01

YZ450f
Top end assembly( includes piston, rings, wrist pin, wristpin bearing, and circlips)...$123.70

This is just top end replacement( normal maintenence).. What happens if you blow the bike up?Assuming a catastrophic engine failure on the 2 stroke it will likely cost you a cylinder, and a crank. Those parts cost you $253 for the crank assy, and $422 for the cylinder.$675 and you are back on the track

On the 4 stroke, you have not only a cylinder and crank to buy, but most likely cams, valves and possibly a head. Also when a 4 stroke lets go, it usually sends the rod through the transmission, breaking and destroying alot of parts in the transmission.. When my 09 yz450 let go on the 3rd ride, it broke one side of the cylinder head off, and sent the rod through the transmission.. It cost me almost $4300 to have the engine replaced
Nailed it!!!

You seem pretty diligent in your maintenance, every ride etc...

But the difference is when it blows up... Which especially with kids, happens...

One 4 stroke blowing it up and suddenly a Mom who wasn't keen on the bikes is selling it... Or a family struggling to keep their kids in it is now going BMX riding...

These are facts, you can see it everywhere... When I was a kid you had to push in to get to sign up, these days the classes are getting combined because there aren't enough riders...

The manufacturers got greedy with the 4 stroke revolution... I love 2 strokes but agree the 4 stroke is superior amongst the current rules... but the sport is suffering...
MX7MX
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MX7MX 7/14/2010 8:26pm
7/14/2010 8:26pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2010 8:33pm
Crush, where each has their place. I'd be willing to bet that if everyone owned 2 strokes, there'd still be those that couldnt afford it. The industry as a whole is simply getting more expensive regarldess of which bike you ride!

kaboom645 7/14/2010 8:31pm
7/14/2010 8:31pm
MX7MX wrote:
Crush, where each has their place. I'd be willing to bet that if everyone owned 2 strokes, there'd still be those that couldnt afford it. The...
Crush, where each has their place. I'd be willing to bet that if everyone owned 2 strokes, there'd still be those that couldnt afford it. The industry as a whole is simply getting more expensive regarldess of which bike you ride!

I am willing to bet you would cross the threshold of not being able to afford it alot sooner on the 4 stroke.
Crush
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Crush 7/14/2010 8:31pm
7/14/2010 8:31pm
Agreed... But the family's struggling with it would keep struggling with it, rather than packing it in all together...

My Dad just about shit the bus when my Brother's RM80 seized... But he got it fixed...

Many years later, my same Brother is probably looking at doing a top end on his CRF250 soon... I just wish I had the patience to carry a camera and follow him all day to catch his reaction at the thousand plus dollar repair bill!!!!

Incidentally, you'd think he would have started taking better care of his bikes huh!!!
olds cool
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olds cool 7/14/2010 8:36pm
7/14/2010 8:36pm
Ask Mitch Payton about the cost comparison between the two. I remember reading an interview w/ him a while back and I don't remember the exact figure but the 4t was multiple times more expensive to build and race than the 2t.
newmann
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newmann 7/14/2010 8:37pm
7/14/2010 8:37pm
MX7MX wrote:
My yz450 went a total of 4 years till the day I sold it with ZERO problems, a friend bought it and rode it close to...
My yz450 went a total of 4 years till the day I sold it with ZERO problems, a friend bought it and rode it close to 2 years till he sold it with ZERO problems. Say what you want, but no 2 stroke I ever owned was that reliable. Maybe I'm one of the "lucky" ones. Either way, nostalgia is one thing if your just a die hard 2 stroke fanatic. I love my C6 Vette but other vette enthusiasts wouldn't own anything except the C3s and 4's. To each their own, but I'd buy and ride either bike. I just choose now not to dislike either one, because both have their place and both have that certain something that makes them appealing to an individual.



If I was buying a new bike tomorrow, it'd be a 4 stroke. Would I own a 2 stroke? Absolutely. Its all preference. Nostalgia plays the largest role in this for the majority. Some like the challenge of having to really "RIDE" the bike (2 stroke) and some like the ease of the bike doing most of the work (4 stroke). To each their own! I used to be the biggest anti-2stroke person on this board. Now I just accept each, as they both share the same quality....putting a smile on our faces, regardless of which makes you happier. If I can bury this argument, surely the rest of us can?
While the 450's have had some issues along the way, for the most part they usually are not the topic of catastrophic failure threads. 250F's on the other hand.....damn money pits there. About that Vette, you can slap a trick set of heads and other mods on it for less than having Pro-Circuit race prep a single 250F head. That doesn't compute with me.

My main complaint is with the double displacement advantage given to them (4 strokes) and even moreso, the elimination of the 125 class at the professional level. The disappearance of the 125 class has not been good for the sport.
ebers
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ebers 7/14/2010 8:44pm
7/14/2010 8:44pm
KAWboy14 wrote:
if someone is worried about money....they shouldnt ride either one or go on vacation to vegas!
Seriously? I'm a college student scraping to get by, I worry about money everyday. I do whatever I can to get to the races because I simply love it. I'm an A rider and using tires that I'm pulling from the used piles that novice guys are throwing out. I put all my money into the maintenance and guess what, I'm currently looking to go back to a 2 stroke. My reason?.. because if something catastrophic goes bad with my current 4 stroke, I'll never see a track for months, where as if something catastrophic happens to a 2 stroke, I'll miss a couple weeks. If money wasn't an object, I'd keep my 4 stroke.

Don't know who you are, or what you do or how deep your pockets are, but I feel its an ignorant statment. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
MX7MX
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MX7MX 7/14/2010 8:45pm
7/14/2010 8:45pm
For me, for example, when I bought my car, I excepted the financial responsibility that everything that I bought for it would be so much more than any vehicle I ever owned. Example: 2 front tires for the Vette (runflats) roughly around $600-800.00! My tacoma..all 4 33.12.50's were right around $500. Same can be applied to the 4 stroke and 2 stroke....

When I bought my 4 stroke I accepted the burden or risk, whichever you see it as, that if it went, that I'd be paying out the backside to fix it. Luckily mine was perfect for the 4 years I owned. So one person could buy a 2 stroke for the expense factor. Either way, I think we all purchase the bikes we do accepting the responsibility that comes with it. Now these familys that put it all on the line to help their sons or daughters be successful at motocross only to fail and go broke accepted that responsibility, even back when it was all 2 strokes.

I just think that the prices of riding is just so damn expensive. For me it was NEVER the expense of maintaining the bike or fixing it. But damn the gas money to and from the track 30 mins to hours away, the food, the fuel. Hell one ride on EITHER bike would break me real quick. Especially with gas prices nowadays. Rough guestimate here.....

Gas to fill up truck= roughly $40.00
Gas for bike, and extra five gallon can= roughly $15.00
Track fees for that day or evening= $20.00
Food and drinks..lets just say $10.00

Total for that day....$85.00 and sometimes depending on where I went $100+

Say if I went twice in the week and once during the weekend....Roughly $300.00.

$1200.00 a month to play without the bike being the cost.

I couldnt imagine being one of the families who are have hte big RV's all the bikes and all the traveling. So its not so much the bike as it is the expenses of simply GOING to the races.

Post a reply to: 4T versus 2T...the "Cost" argument.