350f vs 250 two stroke

Ramrod
Profile picture for user Ramrod
Posts
4733
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Ontario CA
Fantasy
1751st
Ramrod 10/26/2009 8:44pm
10/26/2009 8:44pm
Time will tell how this 350 will work out in racing.

I always thought ktm would just make one for the niche market. Seems like they think it will be bigger than that.
Lightning78
Profile picture for user Lightning78
Posts
6313
Joined
12/12/2007
Location
Huntington Beach, CA US
Lightning78 10/26/2009 10:51pm
10/26/2009 10:51pm
Compared to a works 250 two stroke it will be about dead even .....which IMO will bring back the 250 smoker. Hypothetically the decision will be based on what the rider preferrs 2 vs 4 stroke, Or whatever the mfg they ride for tells them what to ride.
YetiMan
Profile picture for user YetiMan
Posts
140
Joined
10/3/2009
Location
NZ
YetiMan 10/26/2009 11:12pm
10/26/2009 11:12pm
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but over time they all switched back, This year everyone was on the 250f. I think the 250 2strke against 250f is a fair match, epically since in america these factories can make these rocket 250fs that are only made to last 2 races. Maybe its just that mx riders today are too use to the 4 strokes and forgotten how to ride a 2strke

The Shop

See All »
Crush
Profile picture for user Crush
Posts
20960
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
Crush 10/27/2009 2:15am
10/27/2009 2:15am
Well if putting a Pro-Circuit pipe on the stock KTM250SXF gets over 40 ponies, you know the Factory bikes must be pumping it...

I love the theory of this thread, but the development just aint in the 2 strokes, and won't be till everyone starts buying em again!!!
queen of spodes 10/27/2009 5:22am
10/27/2009 5:22am
YetiMan wrote:
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but...
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but over time they all switched back, This year everyone was on the 250f. I think the 250 2strke against 250f is a fair match, epically since in america these factories can make these rocket 250fs that are only made to last 2 races. Maybe its just that mx riders today are too use to the 4 strokes and forgotten how to ride a 2strke
Did they go back for contingency reasons?
suzrider982
Profile picture for user suzrider982
Posts
273
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Kingston, NY US
suzrider982 10/27/2009 6:45am
10/27/2009 6:45am
ya i fully understand that in order to for the mfg tokeep making them more than a few people hav to buy them.
mxr102
Profile picture for user mxr102
Posts
1045
Joined
5/18/2009
Location
Waterloo, IA US
mxr102 10/27/2009 7:25am
10/27/2009 7:25am
There have been many times here in Iowa that Colin Hickman and I have ripped starts against the 450's. Weight to hp ratio the 2stroke is a better comboonation and its alot cheaper. Its all rider preference and someone that does good motorwork!
E-man811
Profile picture for user E-man811
Posts
275
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
North East, GA US
E-man811 10/27/2009 7:43am
10/27/2009 7:43am
Uhhhh.. I think the part that most people are missing is that if a 350f is going to be successful as a racer, it has to get around a track FASTER than a 450F. If it does get around the track faster than a 450F, how on earth would a 250 2 stroke be competitive with it?

All this talk about 350f's and 250's being comparable seems like malarky. Conjecture at best. For them to be comparable on the track, they'd have to have similar lap times, no? And if a 350F does indeed have similar lap times to a 250 2 stroke how would it become a successful bike that people are going to flock to instead of a 450 for a racer?. Given that the way it's set right now, the 350 would have to beat the 450 on the track?

I think that the 350 has a great prospect of becoming a rider choice over a 450 for weight and usable power. I'm a fan of the 350 concept. I think that 450's are too much. But right now the 350f has to beat the 450f to become the "racers" choice. An all us 2 stroke fans now how that works out.

Ride safe
Ian
suzrider982
Profile picture for user suzrider982
Posts
273
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Kingston, NY US
suzrider982 10/27/2009 7:47am
10/27/2009 7:47am
Like i have said before itsthe best feeling to win a moto on a 250 two stroke agaist a pack of mod 450fs
adamdf
Profile picture for user adamdf
Posts
2119
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
St. Michael BB
adamdf 10/27/2009 8:20am
10/27/2009 8:20am
YetiMan wrote:
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but...
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but over time they all switched back, This year everyone was on the 250f. I think the 250 2strke against 250f is a fair match, epically since in america these factories can make these rocket 250fs that are only made to last 2 races. Maybe its just that mx riders today are too use to the 4 strokes and forgotten how to ride a 2strke
Very good points, I also feel I would be faster on a 250F than 250 two two stroke, just because the 250F is a lot smoother and puts the power to the ground so efficiently, I chose 250F. The only advantage I think two strokes have is the reliability. Oh and the sound! Haha
Halfast816 10/27/2009 8:33am
10/27/2009 8:33am
Nope, haven't forgotten it's just easier to go fast on the tractors. Kind of like automatic VS stick.
Matt Fisher
Profile picture for user Matt Fisher
Posts
3948
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
Fantasy
1117th
Matt Fisher 10/27/2009 8:40am
10/27/2009 8:40am
E-man has it right. For the 350 to be successful, it has to be faster around the track than the 450's.

It needs to be cc for cc.
miedosoracing1 10/27/2009 8:48am
10/27/2009 8:48am Edited Date/Time 10/27/2009 8:51am
Actually, I don't think the "faster around the track than the 450F" is what the point is. I believe the whole reason for the switch, is that it is faster around the track at the later parts of the race, then the 450F. So they want it to be at least as fast as the 450F yes. But to maintain the speed consistantly throughout the race. So, while others are falling off the pace, the 350F will start to pull away. I do believe a 350F is fair to a 250 2 stroke with a good sound level. At the current, wide open exhaust, no, it will still beat the 250 2 stroke in my opinion. But the sound is just a short time away. It is coming, from what I understand the way they test will be the first factor. No more cheating. Now remember this on the 350F. The 450F's are actually detuned. Thus, that leaves room on the 350F to actually tune and gain power. So to say the 350F has no chance, is kind of crazy. Sure, all things being equal the 450F should pull the 350F. But no one, including RC used 100% of the 450F potential. They made it more usable power, but not more power. The 350F has room to gain in the hp department, just like the 250F did. What do they gain on those, like 10 hp from the box?
suzrider982
Profile picture for user suzrider982
Posts
273
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Kingston, NY US
suzrider982 10/27/2009 10:11am
10/27/2009 10:11am
the reason you feel a 250f is faster is because the 4 stroke you dont need to stay wide open like you do on a 250 two stroke . you can come in to a conor slower and just hit the gas on the exit and be fine but on the 2 stroke you have to carry your speed into the turn and out of it .
chrisgg90
Profile picture for user chrisgg90
Posts
877
Joined
3/8/2008
Location
GB
Fantasy
1815th
chrisgg90 10/27/2009 11:17am
10/27/2009 11:17am
Ramrod wrote:
Time will tell how this 350 will work out in racing. I always thought ktm would just make one for the niche market. Seems like they...
Time will tell how this 350 will work out in racing.

I always thought ktm would just make one for the niche market. Seems like they think it will be bigger than that.
They have kind of proved themselves already in racing if you look at Tony Cairoli this year in the GP's granted that was a 380. Also Stefan Everts was testing the new 350 in belgium I think it was and was 1 second a lap quicker than Max Nagal on the 450
MX7MX
Profile picture for user MX7MX
Posts
845
Joined
8/28/2007
Location
AL US
MX7MX 10/27/2009 1:30pm
10/27/2009 1:30pm
Ramrod wrote:
Time will tell how this 350 will work out in racing. I always thought ktm would just make one for the niche market. Seems like they...
Time will tell how this 350 will work out in racing.

I always thought ktm would just make one for the niche market. Seems like they think it will be bigger than that.
chrisgg90 wrote:
They have kind of proved themselves already in racing if you look at Tony Cairoli this year in the GP's granted that was a 380. Also...
They have kind of proved themselves already in racing if you look at Tony Cairoli this year in the GP's granted that was a 380. Also Stefan Everts was testing the new 350 in belgium I think it was and was 1 second a lap quicker than Max Nagal on the 450
And James Stewart could take a 250F and beat "most" ALL the 450 riders on any given day! So what happens if James races the outdoors against Mikey on the 350F? What about RV racing against mikey on 350F? Dungey? The list goes on... So its more the 350F has to prove it can hang. Mikey is INSANE outdoors, so it won't be the rider persay so much as its the bike. This year will be the test session, if RV dominates him, the 350F will have no place outdoors after that.
Suns_PSD
Profile picture for user Suns_PSD
Posts
989
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Austin, TX US
Suns_PSD 10/28/2009 9:05am
10/28/2009 9:05am
cc for cc is still completely fair in all cases. Both types have advantages and disadvantages so it all works out in the end.

I'd suspect that if the AMA allowed the 2 strokes a lot more privateers would be able to compete at the national level but Pro-Circuit et all would still show up w/ their superior 44 hp 250fs.

The 350cc seems like the perfect practice bike but as local races are often 2-5 laps I'm not sure getting tired makes much difference but I do know that when I measure lap times the 250 class often is faster than the 450 class locally.

Pit Row

See All »
ML512
Profile picture for user ML512
Posts
15458
Joined
12/28/2008
Location
Wildomar, CA US
Fantasy
45th
ML512 10/28/2009 9:55pm
10/28/2009 9:55pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
cc for cc is still completely fair in all cases. Both types have advantages and disadvantages so it all works out in the end. I'd suspect...
cc for cc is still completely fair in all cases. Both types have advantages and disadvantages so it all works out in the end.

I'd suspect that if the AMA allowed the 2 strokes a lot more privateers would be able to compete at the national level but Pro-Circuit et all would still show up w/ their superior 44 hp 250fs.

The 350cc seems like the perfect practice bike but as local races are often 2-5 laps I'm not sure getting tired makes much difference but I do know that when I measure lap times the 250 class often is faster than the 450 class locally.
trust me its way more than 44hp Whistling
nytsmaC
Profile picture for user nytsmaC
Posts
5960
Joined
8/10/2009
Location
Frig Off CA
nytsmaC 10/29/2009 12:05am
10/29/2009 12:05am Edited Date/Time 10/29/2009 2:04am
This thread is retarded.. The 350s wont be around unless they can hang with the 450s in a race environment. The 250 2-strokes have already proven that they can't.
Fat Fingers
Profile picture for user Fat Fingers
Posts
858
Joined
7/18/2009
Location
Auckland NZ
Fat Fingers 10/29/2009 1:39am
10/29/2009 1:39am
YetiMan wrote:
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but...
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but over time they all switched back, This year everyone was on the 250f. I think the 250 2strke against 250f is a fair match, epically since in america these factories can make these rocket 250fs that are only made to last 2 races. Maybe its just that mx riders today are too use to the 4 strokes and forgotten how to ride a 2strke
queen of spodes wrote:
Did they go back for contingency reasons?
There is no contingency in NZ. If riders switched to the 250f's, it was because they felt they would be faster on the 250f.

WhKnuckle
Profile picture for user WhKnuckle
Posts
7327
Joined
7/17/2007
Location
TX US
WhKnuckle 10/29/2009 4:26am
10/29/2009 4:26am
YetiMan wrote:
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but...
In NZ we race 250f against 250 2strokes in our nationals. In the first year we had a few people switch to the 250 2strke but over time they all switched back, This year everyone was on the 250f. I think the 250 2strke against 250f is a fair match, epically since in america these factories can make these rocket 250fs that are only made to last 2 races. Maybe its just that mx riders today are too use to the 4 strokes and forgotten how to ride a 2strke
queen of spodes wrote:
Did they go back for contingency reasons?
Fat Fingers wrote:
There is no contingency in NZ. If riders switched to the 250f's, it was because they felt they would be faster on the 250f.

Or, more likely, they see all the top riders in the world on four strokes so that's what they want to ride, too. If we don't have top-level cc to cc racing, two strokes are history for everyone except KTM.
Crush
Profile picture for user Crush
Posts
20960
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
Crush 10/29/2009 4:38am
10/29/2009 4:38am
Yeah but there are different applications you have to think of too...

The pros will pick a 450 over a 250 because they can jump things that they can't on a 250 out of the corners etc... and if they do stuff up something they can recover their overall lap time easier... A 350 might not have that same ability but be slightly easier to ride...

Realistically the times aren't going to be massively different as the 250f riders have the same laps as the big bikes now, they just get around the track in a slightly different manner...

I think the thing that has become lost in ALL of this, is there are, always will be, and for the sake of interest, has to be some differences in the bikes....

The organisations, everyone involved, fans, whoever, are so so so concerned with making sure the bikes are equal... But doesn't that make it more interesting...

I guarantee you if you put theoretical RV1 and RV2 on a 250F and 250 2 stroke they'll race each other hard as hell and not give an inch, and at the chequeres they'll be close... and it would be different each time...

Want proof, look at the MXDN... Apart from the start, the bikes are even...

So the real question you should all ask is, is there that much difference in a 250 smoker and a 250 thumper across the first 100 metres, because after that, it would be a good, and in my opinion, much more interesting race...

The other great series in the world have some mechanical freedom, for the sake of competition, why can't we?!?!?!?!
835
Profile picture for user 835
Posts
638
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Turbotville, PA US
835 10/29/2009 7:50am
10/29/2009 7:50am
adamdf wrote:
Very good points, I also feel I would be faster on a 250F than 250 two two stroke, just because the 250F is a lot smoother...
Very good points, I also feel I would be faster on a 250F than 250 two two stroke, just because the 250F is a lot smoother and puts the power to the ground so efficiently, I chose 250F. The only advantage I think two strokes have is the reliability. Oh and the sound! Haha
You forgot the smell!!!!!

Post a reply to: 350f vs 250 two stroke