250 guys pointing out

sam hain
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Edited Date/Time 4/13/2017 1:32pm
http://racerxonline.com/2017/04/12/250-words-pointing-out

I'll put a $1 on Davalos crashing out to purposely stay back ANOTHER year.
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IWreckALot
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4/12/2017 2:02pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2017 2:08pm
DP Davalos? The comments on that site are predictable. I find humor in the Davalos in the 250 class predicament.
rmoto003
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4/12/2017 3:18pm
Im on the side that likes when the older guys stay in the class longer. First off its not like they are winning everything, and second, it keeps the young guys sharp.

If you continually get rid of riders because of age or time in class you end up with the mxgp situation where their top mx2 riders aren't really that great (ie the results from mxdn, Charlotte, glen helen... They were all pretty far behind except for Herlings of course)

The Shop

kott0n
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4/12/2017 3:26pm
He's like a journeyman boxer. He's a mark you aim to beat and will beat when ready.
Mr. Info
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4/12/2017 3:34pm
I heard they are changing the pointing out rules again so some guys can ride it forever.
early
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4/12/2017 3:36pm
Mr. Info wrote:
I heard they are changing the pointing out rules again so some guys can ride it forever.
Like what? You have to score 225 points 5 years in a row?
Ramrod
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4/12/2017 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2017 4:04pm
Mr. Info wrote:
I heard they are changing the pointing out rules again so some guys can ride it forever.
I bet they do this.

What is the point in forcing guys up anymore? All the 450 spots are full and they are pretty much all either 250 champs or race winners.

I'd like to see guys who need to regroup like Weimer drop back down and bump up a Hill or Savatgy. Let guys go back and forth when needed.

4/12/2017 4:15pm
AMA / FIA need to decide what the role of the 250 class is. Is it a place for newcomers to learn? A place for mediocre (for an elite pro) riders to make a career? A championship of equal prestige to 450s?

I think they should force riders out, but make it way less convoluted. 2 championships or 600 total career points. Davalos still could have spent 8 years before he broke 600 points. If after 8 years in the learner's class, you still can't convince a 450 team to hire you, buy a van.
AHRMA361
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4/12/2017 4:28pm
Mr. Info wrote:
I heard they are changing the pointing out rules again so some guys can ride it forever.
Then RC's Road to Supercross will just be a circle back to AX.
cameron96
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4/12/2017 4:54pm
So
J Mart moves up
Hill/savatgy will have to move up (if they win titles)
And Martin Davalos will likely point out

4 Rookies in 2018? And at most I see 1 450 dude retiring!

A lot of guys ain't gonna have rides or there gonna change something..
4/12/2017 5:21pm
Mr. Info wrote:
I heard they are changing the pointing out rules again so some guys can ride it forever.
Ramrod wrote:
I bet they do this. What is the point in forcing guys up anymore? All the 450 spots are full and they are pretty much all...
I bet they do this.

What is the point in forcing guys up anymore? All the 450 spots are full and they are pretty much all either 250 champs or race winners.

I'd like to see guys who need to regroup like Weimer drop back down and bump up a Hill or Savatgy. Let guys go back and forth when needed.

I agree with this, question do they let anyone drop back down or if you win a big bike championship, you are not allowed.
ML512
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4/12/2017 5:23pm
I agree with this, question do they let anyone drop back down or if you win a big bike championship, you are not allowed.
Riders like Kyle Chisholm and Phil Nicoletti appealed and were able to drop back down this year. In Weimer's case, he is ineligible to drop down because he won a 250 SX title.
Sully
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4/12/2017 5:34pm
AMA / FIA need to decide what the role of the 250 class is. Is it a place for newcomers to learn? A place for mediocre...
AMA / FIA need to decide what the role of the 250 class is. Is it a place for newcomers to learn? A place for mediocre (for an elite pro) riders to make a career? A championship of equal prestige to 450s?

I think they should force riders out, but make it way less convoluted. 2 championships or 600 total career points. Davalos still could have spent 8 years before he broke 600 points. If after 8 years in the learner's class, you still can't convince a 450 team to hire you, buy a van.
I agree with the 2 titles, but I don't think there needs to be a max points rule. If you win 2 titles, you're leaning into the domination category (especially in a row), but if teams are willing to pay you to ride a 250, then who the hell am I to deny you a living by saying you've been in the class too long?
4/12/2017 5:42pm
I think it makes it pretty clear. This sport is in desperate need of a developmental class and a 250F class ain't it.
moco
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4/12/2017 6:09pm
Its time for Canada for Davalos
4/12/2017 6:34pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2017 6:37pm
Sully wrote:
I agree with the 2 titles, but I don't think there needs to be a max points rule. If you win 2 titles, you're leaning into...
I agree with the 2 titles, but I don't think there needs to be a max points rule. If you win 2 titles, you're leaning into the domination category (especially in a row), but if teams are willing to pay you to ride a 250, then who the hell am I to deny you a living by saying you've been in the class too long?
If you don't force them out, your 450 class will be diminished. If you were capable of top 10s in 450 races, or a championship contender in 250s, which class would you choose. Given the opportunity, how many of the 5th through 20th place guys in 450 would rather fight for race wins and titles in 250. I imagine quite a few. (No doubt there are a handful who believe, against all evidence to the contrary, that they are just as good as Dungey, Tomac and Roczen.) How will rookies going to get race experience if the 250 class is full of riders who won't move up.

They could try to equalise the status of the 250 and 450 classes. But then you're dividing the talent pool. KTM would put Dungey in one class and Musquin in the other as that would be the best way to maximize title chances in both classes.

Either way we get less talent in 450 and more in 250 compared to now. I fail to see how that is a good thing. No one is guaranteed a living doing what they want to do. There are other options. Arenacross, GNCC, MX only, Canada, Europe, team management, manufacturer rep, etc. Maybe they can race pro in India.



speed_racer
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4/12/2017 6:50pm
Davalos will DNF and stay under the points. The people at his bank don't care about points, and the checks are big.
In fact we will hear about a couple injuries and broken bikes keeping points under 135.
Ramrod
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4/12/2017 7:22pm
Mr. Info wrote:
I heard they are changing the pointing out rules again so some guys can ride it forever.
Ramrod wrote:
I bet they do this. What is the point in forcing guys up anymore? All the 450 spots are full and they are pretty much all...
I bet they do this.

What is the point in forcing guys up anymore? All the 450 spots are full and they are pretty much all either 250 champs or race winners.

I'd like to see guys who need to regroup like Weimer drop back down and bump up a Hill or Savatgy. Let guys go back and forth when needed.

I agree with this, question do they let anyone drop back down or if you win a big bike championship, you are not allowed.
Good question. I don't know the answer but sometimes a guy even if he won 1 250 title may need to drop down and regroup.

Langston did it and it worked wonders for him.

kkawboy14
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4/12/2017 7:24pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2017 7:25pm
Davalos
Osborne
A Mart
Who else has been in there to long?
BigDaddyG
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4/12/2017 9:05pm
I personally can't wait to see Hill on a kawi 450!! He's going to do pretty good I have a feeling. Savatgy will be good on a 450 as well, and of course we know Grandpa Davalos ain't going anywhere! His walker will get speed wobbles and gel go over the bars and live to race the kids class another year Wink
avidchimp
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4/12/2017 9:15pm
If these "seasoned" 250 riders were getting beat, they wouldn't be in the class too long. Conversely, if they were winning a bunch of races, they wouldn't be in the class too long.
Sully
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4/12/2017 10:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2017 10:03pm
If you don't force them out, your 450 class will be diminished. If you were capable of top 10s in 450 races, or a championship contender...
If you don't force them out, your 450 class will be diminished. If you were capable of top 10s in 450 races, or a championship contender in 250s, which class would you choose. Given the opportunity, how many of the 5th through 20th place guys in 450 would rather fight for race wins and titles in 250. I imagine quite a few. (No doubt there are a handful who believe, against all evidence to the contrary, that they are just as good as Dungey, Tomac and Roczen.) How will rookies going to get race experience if the 250 class is full of riders who won't move up.

They could try to equalise the status of the 250 and 450 classes. But then you're dividing the talent pool. KTM would put Dungey in one class and Musquin in the other as that would be the best way to maximize title chances in both classes.

Either way we get less talent in 450 and more in 250 compared to now. I fail to see how that is a good thing. No one is guaranteed a living doing what they want to do. There are other options. Arenacross, GNCC, MX only, Canada, Europe, team management, manufacturer rep, etc. Maybe they can race pro in India.



Of all the reasons to not change the current point system, a diminished 450 class is really low on the list. I'm sure you'd get some guys who would stay on 250s their whole career (like Davalos and Hanny), but I highly doubt the number of riders who stayed would hurt the 450 class one bit. If it is a concern, then keep 450s as the "premier" class (i.e., HUGE bonuses for wins/championships) and make the 250s a "secondary" class (i.e., still pays well, but less than 450s).

Also, if you look at the 450s now, what's the current rider to ride ratio? From everything I've seen, it leans pretty heavily towards the rides being more scarce that the riders, and not everyone racing a 450 currently pointed out of the 250 class.
HenryA
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4/12/2017 11:45pm
Davalos will DNF and stay under the points. The people at his bank don't care about points, and the checks are big. In fact we will...
Davalos will DNF and stay under the points. The people at his bank don't care about points, and the checks are big.
In fact we will hear about a couple injuries and broken bikes keeping points under 135.
I liked the one he used last year, "family issues".
HenryA
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4/12/2017 11:45pm
BigDaddyG wrote:
I personally can't wait to see Hill on a kawi 450!! He's going to do pretty good I have a feeling. Savatgy will be good on...
I personally can't wait to see Hill on a kawi 450!! He's going to do pretty good I have a feeling. Savatgy will be good on a 450 as well, and of course we know Grandpa Davalos ain't going anywhere! His walker will get speed wobbles and gel go over the bars and live to race the kids class another year Wink
Is Hill replacing Grant?
philG
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4/13/2017 2:35am
For me , the issue is that you are pointing out riders who are only racing against half the people in the class.

If you ran East V West , every week, there can only be one winner, and one lot of points.. a guy who only just scrapes the points in a split series will be nowhere if they were together.

If you have guys like AC missing seasons because of injury, or riders missing races because they get injured at round 1, you can have guys getting results in weakened Coast based on the fact that 2 or 3 riders aren't there, and they might not even make top 10 in a combined class.

Point out champions by all means , after a year to defend, but don't throw guys up into a class with no rides, when the guys they are going to get replaced with aren't as good, and will also get moved up because all the fast guys are gone.

jbomx363
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4/13/2017 5:58am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2017 5:58am
If you aren't good enough for someone to pay you to ride a 450.. go the privateer route and EARN a ride. I would imagine that if you enter the 450 class, beat some paid riders consistently, you would earn and take away their ride (Wilson for example)

Just like all the other joes out in the world.. you don't do your job good enough, they hire someone else that will.. you're then out and looking for another job... and more than likely, if you find that job, you're replacing someone else who didn't do their job good enough.

Amazing how that works.




RangerLee
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4/13/2017 7:19am
Lets look at something really crazy.


To make the 250 class even more prominent, and put more on the line in the 450, how about riders that have not won a title and score less than a certain amount of points are moved down to the 250 class.

Then top riders in the 250, with titles or points move up.

JRT812
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4/13/2017 7:30am
rmoto003 wrote:
Im on the side that likes when the older guys stay in the class longer. First off its not like they are winning everything, and second...
Im on the side that likes when the older guys stay in the class longer. First off its not like they are winning everything, and second, it keeps the young guys sharp.

If you continually get rid of riders because of age or time in class you end up with the mxgp situation where their top mx2 riders aren't really that great (ie the results from mxdn, Charlotte, glen helen... They were all pretty far behind except for Herlings of course)
Wouldn't say I like it, but I could care less. I don't see it as sandbagging because you're correct on the older guys are not winning. The only benefit for someone like Martin "send me nudes" Davlos is the money he is making racing. It's the teams to choice to waste top money on someone who will not get the results. I guess all Martin is doing is being a good business man.
BobPA
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4/13/2017 7:32am
I don't get all the hate on Davalos? People are saying if he cannot earn a 450 ride, buy a sprinter van and pay out of pocket....Who the fuck here would honestly do that? How many of you would pay to go to work everyday? Especially a job with so much risk. Who cares if the dude does not move up, he is making a living and still has a good ride.

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