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That was the whole argument for letting the 2 strokes in the class in the first place, we'll see how it all plays out I guess.
I’ve told Kevin Williams to leave the class as it is and work with it the best we can. In our current economy we can’t afford to not have two-strokes in the MX2 class. I think the best solution is to limit the amount of modifications that can be done to the two-strokes and leave it at that. We didn’t really have this problem last year, but this year everyone’s put in a lot more work into the two-strokes to maximize their power advantage. I mean, I thought we’d get beaten at a few tracks this year, but we just can’t keep up with them at all. We have done a few dyno tests and one of the top two-stroke racer’s bikes was putting out seven horsepower more than what a privateer’s YZ250F would do. The biggest difference was in the mid-range, where the two-stroke had a 16 horsepower advantage! That explains why if a two-stroke racer makes a mistake out of a corner they don’t lose as much time as our four-strokes do. If we can control the two-strokes and cut their horsepower by say, 10 percent so they’re not so dominant, then happy days.
Kale Makeham – Tunetech Racing KTM MX2 two-stroke racer:
It’s a real grey area and no-one has a good answer for it. I think main problem is with the Lites class in general. Kawasaki has pulled out, Honda has a limited program and KTM doesn’t have an actual factory MX2 team. The MX2 four-strokes are more expensive to maintain and the teams don’t get the same amount of exposure out of it as the MX1 class, so in my mind it was only a matter of time before the two-strokes made a comeback. I don’t think there’s an easy answer for this, and you definitely can’t cut them from the class, as the MX2 four-stroke only class will be tiny. At the moment right now there are only really two guys on four-strokes out there racing, but I’m racing six-to-eight two-stroke racers out there who can win at any time. It’s not like there’s one guy out there ‘cheating’ on a two-stroke.
Jacob Wright – CDR Yamaha MX1 rider:
If it was up to me, I’d make the two-strokes a separate class. At the end of the day it’s all well and good for them to race the four-strokes, but it’s not fair and it’s not making the two-stroke racers ride any better – they’re just on faster bikes. If they want to make it overseas in Europe or the US they’ll have to ride a four-stroke. Even stepping up to the MX1 they need to learn to race four-strokes, so if they’re serious about their careers, why not just get on one and be done with it? You’re going to get noticed by teams a lot more riding a four-stroke than you are a two-stroke.
Chris Woods – Raceline Pirelli Suzuki workshop manager:
I definitely think we can’t afford to change it and we need to leave the two-strokes involved in the class. Last year we were down to less than half a gate of MX2 racers at Swan Hill, and this year it’s pretty much the busiest class and putting up some great racing. However, I think we need some regulations, as we’re not comparing apples with apples at the moment. I was talking to MA about it and the two options are to either let four-strokes go up to a 300cc capacity, or regulate two-strokes by only allowing standard pipes and reeds. Another option would be to give two-stroke racers a limit of three visual, bolt-on parts, and have a WEM scrutineer creeping through the pits at each round randomly inspecting bikes and engines. You’d be crazy to remove the two-strokes and give them their own class. Guys like Errol Willis and Luke Arbon won’t do an MX3 class – that’s not seen as a national championship and we need those guys there. I can say that this is one of the trickiest things I’ve seen come along in racing. It’s helped generate more interest in the sport, but it’s very tricky to police.
Ryan Marmont – 2006 MX2 Australian Motocross Champion:
It’s very frustrating with the two-strokes and four-strokes. It’s a huge disadvantage and you’ve got to ride the pants off the thing to even battle with two-strokes. You’re underpowered and you’ve got more weight. I really feel whichever decision they make will get people off side, because at the moment the two-stroke guys are happy and the four-stroke guys aren’t. Next year it could potentially be the opposite. You have to look at what’s best for the sport though and I think the way it is right now isn’t the best for the industry. Hopefully they can address it the right way and hopefully bring the numbers back on the four-stroke side as well. We need not to be stubborn, look at what the rest of the world is doing and do what they do. It’s a great sport to be involved in, so with a few little things fixed I think it can boom again.
Jay Wilson – Serco Yamaha MX2 four-stroke racer:
I think there needs to be a MX1, MX2 and a two-stroke class. The privateers who want to race can still afford do in their own class against bikes that are just as competitive, while those who are serious about their careers and wanting to make it can line up in the four-stroke MX2 class. No other country in the world except New Zealand allows two-stroke 250s to race in the MX2 class, so I don’t see why we should be any different.
Mike Landman – Penrite Honda Racing team manager:
In the Lites class, definitely not. Not a 250 two-stroke anyway, maybe a 150 or something like that. A stock 250 four-stroke out of the box, is anywhere from 35, 36 to 38hp and a stock 250 two-stroke is 8-10 more horses than that. It is possible to get a 250 four-stroke to about 40 or 41hp but you can increase the power in the two-stroke as well and it’s faster to begin with. They should be in separate classes. I think that’s something that could be worked out. My concerns are with running the two together – one, is the big horsepower advantage, and two, I can see that the average person who goes to buy a bike is paying similar money for something that has 10 more hp, probably less in maintenance, and I can see it killing the 250 four-stroke class because you can’t blame people. If you’re a privateer riding in that class it’s a no brainer, you will ride a 250 two-stroke. I totally disagree with it because it’s not a fair and level playing field.
Paul Blazey •
It's the manufacturers fault in the first place. trying to relegate the 2
stroke into the dark ages and replacing it with a style of bike that is
heavier and far more expensive to buy, ride, race and maintain. Serves
them right. A small population like Australia cant possibly afford to
have a full gate of 40 guys on 4 strokes racing a national series, so 2
strokes are the way go, albeit they probably wont get a full gate of
them either but at least it's a start. The 250F should be scrapped as a
model and the solution is simple, 250 TS as the MX2 class and 450F as
the MX1 class. Don't like it? then throw some good money at the 250F class and build the support and numbers.....if not? then stop complaining about a problem you caused.
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Lucas Williams
i agree with you there paul
being a rider that has ridden on 450f's, 250f's and 125 + 250 2 strokes it is the manufactures fault i believe 250 2 strokes are perfect for the young blooded fearless teens in the mx2 class maybe they can have a stepping stone system such as under 19's on 250f's and 2 strokes up to 150cc/ mx 2 class on 250 2 strokes and mx1 on 450f's that way its affordable for all manufacturers are represented in all the models they produce and we would be producing better riders by having them ride 250 2 strokes in a lights class before moving to a 450f
The Shop
Thankfully, they didn't.
Though, they have acheived extra costs for the 2t competitors - hey, we've got to make it more even, by making it so that riders have to buy the, generally, more expensive OEM parts..........
Cripes, at least they didn't require use of std pipes - priced an OEM pipe lately, anyone?
It's pathetic, ruling out only a few hundred dollars of simple modifications, but, at least we have retained fairer, more interesting, and great racing.
Perhaps DC and Co can use this sort of approach, standard engine and OEM parts racing, to get equivalency in AMA Pro racing?
GNCC equivalency hasn't caused a 'slaughter' of the 4ts. Come on, DC, be brave, and stand up to the manufacturers that are so commited to protecting their 'fantastic' and 'superior' 4 strokes, through handicap class racing rules ......... Nah, it aint going to happen, is it.
The only thing equal about having 250 two strokes and 250 four strokes in the same class is the number of CC's nothing else is equal.
The weight of each bike is not equal
The HP figures at pretty much ever point of the rev range is not equal (Well I guess there is a cross over point somewhere)
The torque figures are not equal
The Price to go racing is not equal
The budget every rider has to go racing is not equal
The distance each rider has to travel to get to each round is not equal
NOTHING IN THIS SPORT IS EQUAL, so why must two stroke and fourstroke engine capacity be Equal to make everything legit and people happy.
But again racing privateer bikes against factory or factory supported bikes is not equal be it just two stroke, just four stroke or a mixed class.
There is never going to be a perfect answer unless everyone is riding the same make and model as each other with all the same mods.
Heck you just have to look at Moto2 to see that even having the same make bike in one class does not make things equal.
Just be happy with what is out there, race to the rules put in place.
Other options include taking up other sports or running your own series
This post not directed at anyone just my thoughts.
Racing in Aus was good this year, but I think even if these rules were not put in place there was going to be a thinning of the number of two stroke bikes in the hands of Factory supported riders.
Spoken to a few of the front runner in Aus who were on two strokes this year in MX2, all will be on four strokes next year.
I have a feeling only true privateers will be on the two strokes in 2015, I could be wrong!
/sarcasm,
if you want to see what happens when the manufactures don;t support pro racing, look at the AMA road racing series this year,
And there are a quite a few riders who have said they can't afford to race four strokes...
So who cares!?! If the Yamaha team or similar is complaining that they have to spend more money to be competitive, but the other option is there are 4 guys with rides then I know what i'd rather see...
AND besides all of that, really, as a motorsports fan, it's INTERESTING! Just like car racing where different cars have different strengths... I wish all the sandies would just get on with it.
@scott-nz yes DC, lets go like australia and make it so there are almost no paying rides in the 250 class like there is in australia, I mean, why should 250 guys be able to make a living anyway, i mean their parents should support them anyway,
/sarcasm,
if you want to see what happens when the manufactures don;t support pro racing, look at the AMA road racing series this year,
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I understand where you're coming from,
though
When has ama road racing ever been important or popular?, i dont know, but from the outside its always seemed pretty low key
maybe back in the seventies.
Besides the point of being beholden to Japanese manufacturers, who on budgetary advice could pull the pin at any time anyway.
If theres one thing thats certain imo, 250 4 strokes might be good for manufacturers but not for MX
(even then there's a strong argument
that families drop out of the sport when they blow a 250 up a couple of times
and say "$2000 again? fck that for a joke, heres a basketball",
because it is families that start the ball rolling, there is no RV as we know him if his parents said, "MX is too expensive")
dunno, this issue is a hard one
They changed before. They didn't leave.
They're in the market of selling bikes.
And especially in motocross, which is a highly specialised application, racing is development for product which sells monday-saturday morning.
In fact, you could quite easily argue that there is a market waiting to be tapped into... Ask KTM... They seem to sell a few different modes with expansion chambers.
Sorry, isn't that exactly what everyone wants? More power for the same price and less maintenance costs? Complaining about 2 strokes killing the 250 4T's, was it not Honda and the 4T's that started the kill the 2T war! You build a 450 and it's no longer a fair and level playing field... A bit of karma...
Ultimately, it might be good to have a few different regs for the different engines to keep the playing field somewhat level, but at the end of the day the best riders will be at the front regardless of engine so I can't see it being worth getting rid of 2 strokes again and having smaller numbers on the start line.
After weeding through all the bullshit comments from riders and industry people alike, it basically all comes down to this. All non-KTM teams came to the miraculous conclusion that their space-age technology 4-strokes can't keep up with a 20 year old engine design.
Of course, the only logical solution is for the manufacturers and 250F riders to go crying to the governing bodies and have them handicap the cheaper, easier to maintain, privateer friendly bikes... Surely there is no other way.
SURELY.
Didn't a four stroke win the last few titles?
Aren't their laptimes really similar?
Haven't both bikes won races this last few years?
Doesn't that mean that it's pretty close and who the fuck cares?
I think we should ban Yamaha with their reverse engines. It's not right!!!!
WAAAAH!
Pit Row
Put them together then you have people complaining that one bike weighs less and has more HP, there is no way of making things equal. There is now winning no matter which way you go, there will be supporters from either side having a cry.
Don't think Yamaha were the manufacture that was doing the complaining. Apart from a single Honda, Yamaha were the only manufacture with a Factory supported MX2 four or two stroke lites race team in 2014. And Yamaha had a Supported rider in the MX2 class with Errol Willis.
Also if you check out the sales from two stroke MX bikes in Aus the YZ250 out sold the KTM 250SX in the first half of 2014, so it it not like it is Yamaha worried about having market share taken by seeing orange or white or the Italian Blue, two strokes beating their bikes.
Despite 4-5 years now of 2 strokes being allowed to race in the MX2 class in Aus the two stroke sales are still small compared to the four stroke, and there are always 2 strokes available in Aus dealers, so you can see why the manufactures would like to push and race the bikes they sell more of.
The two stroke is a lites bike only class in all levels of racing in Australia, from club racing, state racing to a national level, every single lites rider in Australia has had the option to ride a 250 two stroke against the 250F in the same class for 5 years now, yet sales of new bikes have not changed all the much!.
This year KTM had a couple of Factory supported riders, like Makeham, Harrison, Harwood two stroke and Long on the Four-stroke and same as Husqvarna.
But as for actual Supported TEAM rides, Serco with two riders and Cachia on the single Honda with the Penrite Honda team, so allowing two strokes is not helping bring more paid rides to the class that is for sure.
I would guess that there was only 1 to 3 riders max in Aus that earned enough to make a reasonable living in MX2 in 2014.
Arbon who finished 3rd in the championship was on a state based support program and worked on the Wharfs here in SA all year to make a living.
At the end of the day the people in charge will make the rules for what ever reason they see fit at the time, things will change always have always will.
Electric bikes will come into play in the coming years and there will be a new generation of arguments.
"Yamaha introduces it new line of 2016 2 stroke machines, the YZ200 and YZ300". Honda, Kawi and Suzuki should also agree, rules are changed to allow the 200 in MX2 the 300 in MX1 and bingo problem solved.....Yamaha is frustrated that guys are buying up older YZ250s and fixing them up and not their new bikes (why would you with only BNG), create a diferrence in ccs (similar to 85 vs 80s years ago) and you remove that problem also. Honda took a risk on the CR150F which granted did not pan out, time for yamaha to take a chance on a direct injection YZ200 2 smoke, I'll take 2!
Two Strokes won 9 out of the 10 rounds
Two Strokes won 20 of the 25 motos for the season
Two Strokes Qualified on top at 6 of the 10 rounds
At the start of 2014 the split was about 60 / 40 in favour of four strokes on the gate
By mid season it was about 50 / 50
By end of season it was probably 48/52 in favour of two strokes.
Just for the sake of putting some stats to the argument , for and against on what ever side of the fence you sit
At season end Two Strokes held 8 of the top 10 positions in the championship
ten of the top fifteen spots, after that it gets hard as the guy in 16th spent half the season on a KX250F before making the switch to a KTM 250SX for the second half of the year.
The YZ250 still out sells the KTM 250 SX
For the first half of 2014, about 310 units of the YZ250 and 250 units for the KTM 250 SX
In the scheme of things for a manufacture in Aus to go spend big money racing a 250 two stroke when you are talking 500-600 units a year max.
So I don't think it is a case of Yamaha frustrated by guys buying up old 250's to go racing. though there are plenty for sale second hand over here.
No one is arguing that the two stroke does not produce more power, is lighter and can have even more power gained with some decent mods.
CC for CC it is much better on paper, be it stock or worked.
In real terms on a race track will that make much difference? That is where the argument for having them together lays.
Why not give them both their own class.
As for the others that are saying it is killing the sport due to cost, I thought you could race 250 two strokes against 250Fs at an amateur level in the U.S apart from LL?
Do they not still have 125cc classes for juniors racers / Amateurs in the U.S?
And it allows a lot of those riders riding those laps to ride at all... That's reason enough to not have their own class. You're at al the races Az, is the sport healthy enough to support another class?
Also, although i'll get called a conspiracist, sure 4 stroke sales figures dwarf two strokes at the current time, but would some of that not be stock levels? You certainly read on forums like this a lot of people saying they wanted to buy a 2 stroke but couldn't find one new in stock... If Blue and Orange said we make 5000 of each then we can compare figures... but I would guess their production lines are still scaled towards the trend of four strokes taking over a few years back...
I do think 4 strokes are better. I just think the sport is too damn expensive.
BTW How do you fit in 4 classes of racing into 1 day at any national??
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