2 stroke comeback

Mstock
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11/3/2010 7:40pm
newmann wrote:
Anybody know what KTM's sales ratio's are lately 2 stroke/4 stroke?
sdfog1 wrote:
I haven't seen anything official, but I hear "40 percent 2 stroke and 60 percent 4 stroke" thrown around as a stat quite often. No idea...
I haven't seen anything official, but I hear "40 percent 2 stroke and 60 percent 4 stroke" thrown around as a stat quite often. No idea if that's true or not.
Take out the "off road" model sales and it probably 95% four stroke and 5% two stroke.

And you masterminds wonder why the mcf's laugh at the two stroke crowd. KTM knows something or they would bail on them yesturday. Maybe they just love the sport and are waiting for people to wake up before its too late.
kx100getter
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11/3/2010 7:43pm
But seriously, do they allow 250 2-strokes in the 250f AMA class?
newmann
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11/3/2010 7:44pm
Mstock wrote:
There are classes at every ama sanctioned local motocross event for two strokes. Most age groups can race 2-3 classes on a two stroke. We did...
There are classes at every ama sanctioned local motocross event for two strokes. Most age groups can race 2-3 classes on a two stroke.

We did this to ourselves. We stopped buying two strokes. It's our fault. Stop your bitching and go buy yourself a 2011 two stroke.
I think there was a little planned obsolescense on the OEM's behalf thrown in there as well. The off-road /enduro crowd still seem to hold the 2 stroke pretty favorable in competition
mxb2
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11/3/2010 7:45pm
But seriously, do they allow 250 2-strokes in the 250f AMA class?
Google AMA PRORACING all the rules are in there!, and the answer is no! But some local tracks allow it!

The Shop

DBerg
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11/3/2010 7:45pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2010 7:49pm
People want 2strokes but don't buy them because of the way the classes are set up. I think that's why they are getting more popular among the weekend warriors. Some of us can't afford to go racing every weekend but want something that's fun to play around on and cheap/easy to maintain when it needs it and 2strokes are perfect for that. For the racers it doesn't make sense to buy a 125 if you have to line up against a bunch of 250s. For the people that don't really know much about it and just want a shiney new bike like the pros ride, it's all about engine size. I can't tell you how many people who kind of ride a little but don't really know that much about the moto scene will say, "4strokes are just the way to go. They're better in every way." and then when you ask them what exactly is better about a 250F compared to a 250 2stroke, they have no idea. The response is usually something like, "Stewart don't ride no 2stroke."

I'm not a 4stroke hater. I used to ride 250F's when I raced, but it's no secret that the displacement advantage given to 4strokes is what has killed the 2stroke. Sure the direct cause is lack of market these days, but that's a direct result of the displacement rules that were set up.
Also just to add to that. When the new 2strokes being produced are essentially the same as they have been for the last 5 years, it makes sense that people will opt to buy used. You can buy a new one for 7G's or you can buy a used one for 3 grand, put 2 grand into it, save 2 grand and have a better bike than the new one.
GIwasB4
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11/3/2010 7:47pm
Mstock wrote:
There are classes at every ama sanctioned local motocross event for two strokes. Most age groups can race 2-3 classes on a two stroke. We did...
There are classes at every ama sanctioned local motocross event for two strokes. Most age groups can race 2-3 classes on a two stroke.

We did this to ourselves. We stopped buying two strokes. It's our fault. Stop your bitching and go buy yourself a 2011 two stroke.
Ryan Dungey, Reed, Stewart don't race "the 2 stroke class". The masses don't either.
Jimmy Mac at chicken licks speedway wants to race lites C-B-A, and to be competitive, he's got to go it on a 250F.
He doesn't want to be lined up with 4-6 booger pickers in "the 2 stroke class"
mxb2
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11/3/2010 7:49pm
DBerg wrote:
People want 2strokes but don't buy them because of the way the classes are set up. I think that's why they are getting more popular among...
People want 2strokes but don't buy them because of the way the classes are set up. I think that's why they are getting more popular among the weekend warriors. Some of us can't afford to go racing every weekend but want something that's fun to play around on and cheap/easy to maintain when it needs it and 2strokes are perfect for that. For the racers it doesn't make sense to buy a 125 if you have to line up against a bunch of 250s. For the people that don't really know much about it and just want a shiney new bike like the pros ride, it's all about engine size. I can't tell you how many people who kind of ride a little but don't really know that much about the moto scene will say, "4strokes are just the way to go. They're better in every way." and then when you ask them what exactly is better about a 250F compared to a 250 2stroke, they have no idea. The response is usually something like, "Stewart don't ride no 2stroke."

I'm not a 4stroke hater. I used to ride 250F's when I raced, but it's no secret that the displacement advantage given to 4strokes is what has killed the 2stroke. Sure the direct cause is lack of market these days, but that's a direct result of the displacement rules that were set up.
Also just to add to that. When the new 2strokes being produced are essentially the same as they have been for the last 5 years, it makes sense that people will opt to buy used. You can buy a new one for 7G's or you can buy a used one for 3 grand, put 2 grand into it, save 2 grand and have a better bike than the new one.
2 stroke lovers say their ridin for fun so what does any class rules have to do with anything! So they can still go out and buy a new bike or quit complaining about the 2 stroke 4 stroke debate!
11/3/2010 7:50pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2010 7:52pm
DBerg wrote:
People want 2strokes but don't buy them because of the way the classes are set up. I think that's why they are getting more popular among...
People want 2strokes but don't buy them because of the way the classes are set up. I think that's why they are getting more popular among the weekend warriors. Some of us can't afford to go racing every weekend but want something that's fun to play around on and cheap/easy to maintain when it needs it and 2strokes are perfect for that. For the racers it doesn't make sense to buy a 125 if you have to line up against a bunch of 250s. For the people that don't really know much about it and just want a shiney new bike like the pros ride, it's all about engine size. I can't tell you how many people who kind of ride a little but don't really know that much about the moto scene will say, "4strokes are just the way to go. They're better in every way." and then when you ask them what exactly is better about a 250F compared to a 250 2stroke, they have no idea. The response is usually something like, "Stewart don't ride no 2stroke."

I'm not a 4stroke hater. I used to ride 250F's when I raced, but it's no secret that the displacement advantage given to 4strokes is what has killed the 2stroke. Sure the direct cause is lack of market these days, but that's a direct result of the displacement rules that were set up.
Also just to add to that. When the new 2strokes being produced are essentially the same as they have been for the last 5 years, it makes sense that people will opt to buy used. You can buy a new one for 7G's or you can buy a used one for 3 grand, put 2 grand into it, save 2 grand and have a better bike than the new one.
Exactly why would anyone even consider spending just as much on a brand new yz 125 to get smoked at the races by 250f's it would make no sense. Thats why people buy used two strokes and just fix them also because of no development on them besides ktm. Once you can race the 250 2 strokes against the 250f's 2 strokes will return but 125s will be killed off that being said I race my 125 more then my 250f its just so much more fun our next new bike will be a 250 2 stroke just not this year... just MO
DBerg
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11/3/2010 7:53pm
mxb2 wrote:
2 stroke lovers say their ridin for fun so what does any class rules have to do with anything! So they can still go out and...
2 stroke lovers say their ridin for fun so what does any class rules have to do with anything! So they can still go out and buy a new bike or quit complaining about the 2 stroke 4 stroke debate!
There have always been people that only rode for fun that added to the total sales of bikes. The difference is, the rest of those total sales of 2strokes used to come from racers as well. With the displacement rules, the "racer demographic" is largely removed.
jmar
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11/3/2010 8:08pm
GIwasB4 wrote:
A well engineered 500cc 2 stroke priced reasonably would sell like hot cakes.
I didn't say it first, it is true.
jmar wrote:
I have to ask.

Why do some of you seem to think the OEMs could sell the two strokes for less?



GIwasB4 wrote:
It's cheaper to produce the 2 stroke motor, argue it. Yamaha is making a killing on profit per machine comparing the YZ125 to the YZ250F. Again...
It's cheaper to produce the 2 stroke motor, argue it. Yamaha is making a killing on profit per machine comparing the YZ125 to the YZ250F. Again, tell me they are not?

Please show me where Yamaha says they're making a killing off of the two stroke motors.
GIwasB4
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11/3/2010 8:21pm
jmar wrote:

Please show me where Yamaha says they're making a killing off of the two stroke motors.
Sorry, I can't. Your right they all cost the same.

TerryB
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11/3/2010 8:28pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2010 8:32pm
DBerg wrote:
There have always been people that only rode for fun that added to the total sales of bikes. The difference is, the rest of those total...
There have always been people that only rode for fun that added to the total sales of bikes. The difference is, the rest of those total sales of 2strokes used to come from racers as well. With the displacement rules, the "racer demographic" is largely removed.
Real question: What percentage of MX models sold in the US actually get raced in organized events?

Yamabucks pays out contingency to how many riders per season, vs. how many new bikes,etc?

Sonny
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11/3/2010 8:31pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2010 8:32pm
jmar wrote:

Please show me where Yamaha says they're making a killing off of the two stroke motors.
GIwasB4 wrote:
Sorry, I can't. Your right they all cost the same.

I think it could be said that the average Joe who would replace a bike yearly as he did in the 2-stroke era doesn't go that route any longer with the 4-stroke. The mid-year maintenance dries up quite a few funds. The days of a $100 top end are long gone.




jmar
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11/3/2010 8:51pm
jmar wrote:

Please show me where Yamaha says they're making a killing off of the two stroke motors.
GIwasB4 wrote:
Sorry, I can't. Your right they all cost the same.

Sonny wrote:
I think it could be said that the average Joe who would replace a bike yearly as he did in the 2-stroke era doesn't go that...
I think it could be said that the average Joe who would replace a bike yearly as he did in the 2-stroke era doesn't go that route any longer with the 4-stroke. The mid-year maintenance dries up quite a few funds. The days of a $100 top end are long gone.




Mid year maintenance?

I know guys that own 450s, ride and race quite often, and go seasons with out ever pulling the head off of the bike. I hear the horror stories, but my personal experience has been that the four strokes were much less trouble than the two strokes.

Of coarse that isn't going to be the case when talking about a tapped out 250f.
Blake
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11/3/2010 10:28pm
newmann wrote:
Why? Because the Big 4 would have to make a 900cc 4 stroke to be equal.Smile
LMMFAO TRUE.

mx836
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11/3/2010 10:29pm
jmar wrote:
I have to ask.

Why do some of you seem to think the OEMs could sell the two strokes for less?



GIwasB4 wrote:
It's cheaper to produce the 2 stroke motor, argue it. Yamaha is making a killing on profit per machine comparing the YZ125 to the YZ250F. Again...
It's cheaper to produce the 2 stroke motor, argue it. Yamaha is making a killing on profit per machine comparing the YZ125 to the YZ250F. Again, tell me they are not?
jmar wrote:

Please show me where Yamaha says they're making a killing off of the two stroke motors.
How many years has Yamaha been using the same tooling for the two strokes? How often do they change it on the four strokes? So does it not cost more to produce a new four stroke every few years than it does to produce nearly the same two stroke for I believe, seven years? There is the difference.
11/3/2010 11:11pm
But seriously, do they allow 250 2-strokes in the 250f AMA class?
Don't know about the AMA but you can run a 2 stroke in the Lites Class of the current Australasian Supercross Championship. I believe this is the first year 2Ts have been allowed to run with the thumpers.
Bill163
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11/3/2010 11:53pm
DBerg wrote:
People want 2strokes but don't buy them because of the way the classes are set up. I think that's why they are getting more popular among...
People want 2strokes but don't buy them because of the way the classes are set up. I think that's why they are getting more popular among the weekend warriors. Some of us can't afford to go racing every weekend but want something that's fun to play around on and cheap/easy to maintain when it needs it and 2strokes are perfect for that. For the racers it doesn't make sense to buy a 125 if you have to line up against a bunch of 250s. For the people that don't really know much about it and just want a shiney new bike like the pros ride, it's all about engine size. I can't tell you how many people who kind of ride a little but don't really know that much about the moto scene will say, "4strokes are just the way to go. They're better in every way." and then when you ask them what exactly is better about a 250F compared to a 250 2stroke, they have no idea. The response is usually something like, "Stewart don't ride no 2stroke."

I'm not a 4stroke hater. I used to ride 250F's when I raced, but it's no secret that the displacement advantage given to 4strokes is what has killed the 2stroke. Sure the direct cause is lack of market these days, but that's a direct result of the displacement rules that were set up.
Also just to add to that. When the new 2strokes being produced are essentially the same as they have been for the last 5 years, it makes sense that people will opt to buy used. You can buy a new one for 7G's or you can buy a used one for 3 grand, put 2 grand into it, save 2 grand and have a better bike than the new one.
mxb2 wrote:
2 stroke lovers say their ridin for fun so what does any class rules have to do with anything! So they can still go out and...
2 stroke lovers say their ridin for fun so what does any class rules have to do with anything! So they can still go out and buy a new bike or quit complaining about the 2 stroke 4 stroke debate!
You make it sound so easy in every post go buy a new 2 stroke or shut up where have you been? how many people can afford a new bike 2 or 4 stroke?for 7-8 grand a pop? this isn't 4 years ago.Everybody is broke or has too poor credit to buy.As far as the 2 stroke debate some people here and other boards bought bikes after 2000 so they would never understand anything about 2 strokes anyway.

hazza#27
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11/4/2010 12:28am
But seriously, do they allow 250 2-strokes in the 250f AMA class?
Antipodean wrote:
Don't know about the AMA but you can run a 2 stroke in the Lites Class of the current Australasian Supercross Championship. I believe this is...
Don't know about the AMA but you can run a 2 stroke in the Lites Class of the current Australasian Supercross Championship. I believe this is the first year 2Ts have been allowed to run with the thumpers.
your right, this is the first year and the 250 2 strokes are aloud in the lites mx also. i was at the canberra super x and there were two 2 strokes in the lites class. was very entertaining to watch.
Dropbear
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11/4/2010 12:32am
newmann wrote:
Anybody know what KTM's sales ratio's are lately 2 stroke/4 stroke?
Good question

I see more KTM's these days in the forest or on trailers/pick ups sporting chambers than without.
SwapperMX
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11/4/2010 3:25am
But seriously, do they allow 250 2-strokes in the 250f AMA class?
Antipodean wrote:
Don't know about the AMA but you can run a 2 stroke in the Lites Class of the current Australasian Supercross Championship. I believe this is...
Don't know about the AMA but you can run a 2 stroke in the Lites Class of the current Australasian Supercross Championship. I believe this is the first year 2Ts have been allowed to run with the thumpers.
hazza#27 wrote:
your right, this is the first year and the 250 2 strokes are aloud in the lites mx also. i was at the canberra super x...
your right, this is the first year and the 250 2 strokes are aloud in the lites mx also. i was at the canberra super x and there were two 2 strokes in the lites class. was very entertaining to watch.
Yeah, how good was it. Robbie Marshall has been riding the wheels off his YZ250 and has had some great results. For the MX sports directors, they should allow 250 two strokes into the lites class. There wouldn't be a mass exodus towards two strokes like they claim.There would only be a handful of guys trying to qualify on them and that would be all. Here in Australia this year, with the rules allowing the 250 two strokes in the lites class, there was only a couple of veteran riders out there doing battle on them. While they did pretty well, they were top seasoned Pros who spent most of their career on the two strokes. The few privateer guys that were racing them placed where they would have even if they were on four strokes, its just that they were able to make it through the season on a smaller budget. As everyone around here claims on a regular basis, it's 95% rider and 5% bike.

MX SPORTS - Allow the 250 two strokes to compete in the lites class and give us moto fans something to cheer for, and continue to progress our great sport forward. There is the worldwide results proving that the 250 two stroke does not have an unfair advantage over the 250F's these days.
Matt Wozney
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11/4/2010 3:25am
mxb2 wrote:
Maybe your bro can race his 2 stroke in 2011! LOL!
Not likely.....well.....if his 4 stroke craps out....and his 2 stroke is ready to roll.......
mxb2 wrote:
Whats he ridin in 2011?
Most likely Honda 450 for the nationals again.
Kinetic1
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11/4/2010 3:46am
As pertains to the "tooled up" comments. You guys do realize Suzuki and I believe Kawasaki as well still sell plenty of two strokes in other parts of the world right? America may be the largest market (maybe not anymore) but we certainly aren't the only market. I don't think they are doing much in the way of development anymore but they do still sell.
Rupert X
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11/4/2010 5:48am


Locally, we are all seeing the effects of the expensive rebuilds of 4 strokes.

People are snatching up hotcakes like they're two-strokes.

Its evident.

The winds of change have changed course and the tangy odor of mixed gases

are blowing back in our faces,,,,

Rejoice.

Grassroots is motocross and the roots are growing fast.
burn1986
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11/4/2010 5:48am Edited Date/Time 11/4/2010 6:48am
I think Swapper hit the nail on the head. They are cheaper to maintain. Who cares about the factories and what they are racing; allowing 2-strokes is for the privateer. They are cheaper to produce (less parts) but the factories still jack the price up. Even so, 450 prices are getting closer to $9000: Beta 8499, Honda 8199, Kawi 8149, KTM 8799, Suzuki 8149, Yamaha 8150. The bike costs first are higher not to mention the rebuild costs.
jmar
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11/4/2010 6:17am
GIwasB4 wrote:
It's cheaper to produce the 2 stroke motor, argue it. Yamaha is making a killing on profit per machine comparing the YZ125 to the YZ250F. Again...
It's cheaper to produce the 2 stroke motor, argue it. Yamaha is making a killing on profit per machine comparing the YZ125 to the YZ250F. Again, tell me they are not?
jmar wrote:

Please show me where Yamaha says they're making a killing off of the two stroke motors.
mx836 wrote:
How many years has Yamaha been using the same tooling for the two strokes? How often do they change it on the four strokes? So does...
How many years has Yamaha been using the same tooling for the two strokes? How often do they change it on the four strokes? So does it not cost more to produce a new four stroke every few years than it does to produce nearly the same two stroke for I believe, seven years? There is the difference.
This tooling you speak of has to do with the process of assembling the bikes. Parts for both engines are purchased from outside vendors. As in everything else, the more parts that are purchased, the better the price.

BTW: A good number of parts in both engines are universal, are not specifically made for just for one purpose.
-eagle-
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11/4/2010 6:50am
I"m over people giving yamaha a greased reach around for "their two stroke efforts."
They keep the supply down, so the demand and price is ridiculous.
I"ve have two friends that are Yami dealers, they can get a handful of yz250's each year for 6800ish. Which puts them close to 7 for everyone. Keep in mind this is a bike that hasn't changed in 5 years. You can drop another grand and get a 10-11 450.

Now do a dealer search on ebay for yzf's. 09 big and little models all day for 4700.
No way they are making a comeback with leftovers going for that. People here think picking up a beater off craigslist is going to going to save the world; that does jack shit for an oem.
The R&D dollars blown on those new 450's are being recovered by the 0 R&D on the 06 yz models, with the 2011 price tag on them.

This is coming from a guy that has never owned a valve bike, but will when my cr gets to ragged.
Cygnus
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11/4/2010 7:09am
-eagle- wrote:
I"m over people giving yamaha a greased reach around for "their two stroke efforts." They keep the supply down, so the demand and price is ridiculous...
I"m over people giving yamaha a greased reach around for "their two stroke efforts."
They keep the supply down, so the demand and price is ridiculous.
I"ve have two friends that are Yami dealers, they can get a handful of yz250's each year for 6800ish. Which puts them close to 7 for everyone. Keep in mind this is a bike that hasn't changed in 5 years. You can drop another grand and get a 10-11 450.

Now do a dealer search on ebay for yzf's. 09 big and little models all day for 4700.
No way they are making a comeback with leftovers going for that. People here think picking up a beater off craigslist is going to going to save the world; that does jack shit for an oem.
The R&D dollars blown on those new 450's are being recovered by the 0 R&D on the 06 yz models, with the 2011 price tag on them.

This is coming from a guy that has never owned a valve bike, but will when my cr gets to ragged.
KTM is no different. Try and find a 150SX.
CRFracer117
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11/4/2010 7:14am
Cygnus wrote:
KTM is no different. Try and find a 150SX.
Called a dealer the other day sold out of KTM 2011 150's as well as the 250 2-smoker. But they still have 08 and 09 KTM four bangers on the floor.
burn1986
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11/4/2010 7:20am
That's because they're all idiots!

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