15-16 Yamaha frame cracks...

SRP33
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Shelton, CT US
11/16/2015 9:37am
Titan1 wrote:
This is a really hard year to buy a bike... KTM- Crappy 4cs forks, expensive Kawi- Air forks Honda- Slow, air forks, dual exhaust, the CR450...
This is a really hard year to buy a bike...

KTM- Crappy 4cs forks, expensive
Kawi- Air forks
Honda- Slow, air forks, dual exhaust, the CR450 doesn't make a good off road bike
Suzuki- Heavy, dated, air forks, the RM450 doesn't a make great off road bike
yamaha- Frame cracks

Pick your poison I guess...

I was fully decided on a new 15 or 16 YZ450 (though the KX is still very much a possibility if I came across a killer deal), then I see stuff like this and it makes me 2nd guess the Yamaha. Why couldn't the KX have the YZ forks on it? And why couldn't Yamaha just have good frames. LOL
Better off just restoring an older bike
yak651
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11/16/2015 9:44am
Titan1 wrote:
This is a really hard year to buy a bike... KTM- Crappy 4cs forks, expensive Kawi- Air forks Honda- Slow, air forks, dual exhaust, the CR450...
This is a really hard year to buy a bike...

KTM- Crappy 4cs forks, expensive
Kawi- Air forks
Honda- Slow, air forks, dual exhaust, the CR450 doesn't make a good off road bike
Suzuki- Heavy, dated, air forks, the RM450 doesn't a make great off road bike
yamaha- Frame cracks

Pick your poison I guess...

I was fully decided on a new 15 or 16 YZ450 (though the KX is still very much a possibility if I came across a killer deal), then I see stuff like this and it makes me 2nd guess the Yamaha. Why couldn't the KX have the YZ forks on it? And why couldn't Yamaha just have good frames. LOL
Take what you see here and other sites with a grain of salt. Yes looks like a problem, but assuming it's limited as you would've seen multiple threads on here if it was happening to everyone. I hope a thread like this opens the eyes of an OEM and they take care of the customer but it shouldn't stop anyone from buying a bike.
mxb2
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11/16/2015 10:46am
Get aa 15/16 Crf 450, put spring forks on it, remap, pipe good to go. Imo

The Shop

Madc32
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Portland, OR US
11/16/2015 12:05pm
I recently went to the Yamaha shop to check out the YZ 250x. I was turned off by the appearance of bad looking welds. I decided to stick with KTM. Now I feel smart.
jtiger12
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Forest H Ill, MD US
11/16/2015 12:46pm
looks like I freshen up the 07 CRF450 for another season. my frame and transmission has over 300 hours on it, no cracks, spring forks, no flameouts (carb), what a great bike.

11/16/2015 1:48pm
mxb2 wrote:
Get aa 15/16 Crf 450, put spring forks on it, remap, pipe good to go. Imo
FC has a good set up on the PSF2. Not magical, but better than acceptable, IMO. Good bike.
philG
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11/16/2015 1:57pm
welds that look nice , dont neccessarily do the job, you need to get material in there and with Aluminium, you need to do it right , cant fanny around , plenty of power and filler , its rarely pretty, unless its sheet work, then you have to be ultra careful.

Not a welder , but have worked with some really good ones.
mxb2
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11/16/2015 2:17pm
mxb2 wrote:
Get aa 15/16 Crf 450, put spring forks on it, remap, pipe good to go. Imo
FC has a good set up on the PSF2. Not magical, but better than acceptable, IMO. Good bike.
Agreed fc does great stuff, they did my last 3 bikes and the current A kit on my 15crf450.
kiwifan
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11/16/2015 2:31pm
mxb2 wrote:
Get aa 15/16 Crf 450, put spring forks on it, remap, pipe good to go. Imo
FC has a good set up on the PSF2. Not magical, but better than acceptable, IMO. Good bike.
mxb2 wrote:
Agreed fc does great stuff, they did my last 3 bikes and the current A kit on my 15crf450.
Agree 100%, I used them for my 15 Honda and my 16 Kawasaki...highly recommended

I recommend a cam change on the 15 Honda too...works well with pipe and remaps, incredibly strong engine once done.
mxb2
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11/16/2015 3:20pm
FC has a good set up on the PSF2. Not magical, but better than acceptable, IMO. Good bike.
mxb2 wrote:
Agreed fc does great stuff, they did my last 3 bikes and the current A kit on my 15crf450.
kiwifan wrote:
Agree 100%, I used them for my 15 Honda and my 16 Kawasaki...highly recommended I recommend a cam change on the 15 Honda too...works well with...
Agree 100%, I used them for my 15 Honda and my 16 Kawasaki...highly recommended

I recommend a cam change on the 15 Honda too...works well with pipe and remaps, incredibly strong engine once done.
Awesome, share it. Plz, as. of now , no screen, full twin yosh, inserts out, renegade sx4_ Wgoske@yahoo.com, thanks Billy. , remap soon
tempura
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11/16/2015 3:27pm
Checked my 16 yz250 (2stroke). All the welds are good, but some are dirty as has been mentioned elsewhere. I don't mind dirty if they don't crack. I'll keep a keen eye on them from now, although I haven't heard of the 2stroke frames to have this issue...yet...
I do think Yamaha has a bit of history with this problem. I remember a few years back a friend had his 250f frame crack at the weld. Yamaha didn't look after him on the issue unfortunately..
ehr400
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11/16/2015 3:36pm Edited Date/Time 11/16/2015 3:43pm
You have to remember when welding on aluminum it will always fail in the weld itself since the weld is weaker then the parent metal. Definitely too much heat trying to go to fast with limited penetration. Also with these frames it appears they are welding cast to cast which could be indicitive of poor casting quality which isnt uncommon with japanese castings.
ehr400
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11/16/2015 3:48pm
philG wrote:
We are doing robot welding trials just now, titanium aero stuff, the human element is the ability to feel the weld as it goes along...
We are doing robot welding trials just now, titanium aero stuff, the human element is the ability to feel the weld as it goes along .

You could program a robot to paint a picture , but it will never look the same twice.

You can robot weld cheap stuff, simple welds , till the cows come home and never have an issue , but the more intricate the materials , and length of the weld, the easier it is to have problems.
You would be shocked in the robotic applications we do, alot of intricate welds robotically applied via Laser or friction stir on aluminum alloys in high volume production. +/- .5mm weld tolerancing over a 6' span.
user760a
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Shelby, NC US
11/16/2015 7:54pm
Titan1 wrote:
This is a really hard year to buy a bike... KTM- Crappy 4cs forks, expensive Kawi- Air forks Honda- Slow, air forks, dual exhaust, the CR450...
This is a really hard year to buy a bike...

KTM- Crappy 4cs forks, expensive
Kawi- Air forks
Honda- Slow, air forks, dual exhaust, the CR450 doesn't make a good off road bike
Suzuki- Heavy, dated, air forks, the RM450 doesn't a make great off road bike
yamaha- Frame cracks

Pick your poison I guess...

I was fully decided on a new 15 or 16 YZ450 (though the KX is still very much a possibility if I came across a killer deal), then I see stuff like this and it makes me 2nd guess the Yamaha. Why couldn't the KX have the YZ forks on it? And why couldn't Yamaha just have good frames. LOL
yep. I just bought another older spring fork KX450F. plenty of dough and plenty of awesome deals on leftovers to be had, but I am not buying a bike with air forks. The Japanese just take their cues from each other. Monkey see, monkey do with these stupid air forks. aside from yamaha. I may well go blue next time
kiwifan
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11/16/2015 8:25pm
mxb2 wrote:
Agreed fc does great stuff, they did my last 3 bikes and the current A kit on my 15crf450.
kiwifan wrote:
Agree 100%, I used them for my 15 Honda and my 16 Kawasaki...highly recommended I recommend a cam change on the 15 Honda too...works well with...
Agree 100%, I used them for my 15 Honda and my 16 Kawasaki...highly recommended

I recommend a cam change on the 15 Honda too...works well with pipe and remaps, incredibly strong engine once done.
mxb2 wrote:
Awesome, share it. Plz, as. of now , no screen, full twin yosh, inserts out, renegade sx4_ Wgoske@yahoo.com, thanks Billy. , remap soon
I dont have my 15 anymore, sold it to a friend of mine who got a holeshot against me last weekend the bastard!!! lol
mxb2
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11/16/2015 8:59pm
kiwifan wrote:
Agree 100%, I used them for my 15 Honda and my 16 Kawasaki...highly recommended I recommend a cam change on the 15 Honda too...works well with...
Agree 100%, I used them for my 15 Honda and my 16 Kawasaki...highly recommended

I recommend a cam change on the 15 Honda too...works well with pipe and remaps, incredibly strong engine once done.
mxb2 wrote:
Awesome, share it. Plz, as. of now , no screen, full twin yosh, inserts out, renegade sx4_ Wgoske@yahoo.com, thanks Billy. , remap soon
kiwifan wrote:
I dont have my 15 anymore, sold it to a friend of mine who got a holeshot against me last weekend the bastard!!! lol
Ha-ha nice what good mods did you do to the Crf?
harescrambled
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11/16/2015 9:47pm
One of the problems with welding aluminum like this is they are putting a tremendous amount of heat in a tiny area...and the rest of the frame....especially the steering head casting is nothing but a big heat sink. Have to preheat the area and make sure it doesn't cool too quickly. If it does the weld either cracks right away, or has so much stress in it that it cracks during the first few stress cycles. (I'm a 25 year metal fabricator with 5 years of ferrous/nonferrous NDT experience...seen these types of failures before...mostly poor joint prep/insufficient preheat).
xr70
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11/16/2015 10:00pm
I check my frame yesterday on my 15 yz450f and after 85 hrs so fare is ok and I am on the heavy side.
917rider
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11/16/2015 11:07pm
40 hrs on my 14 450 and all is well ....as for this being a common issue says who, there is only a couple pics and that is proof not one guy and that guy and another guy that said there frame cracked ,if there frame cracked they would have took pics so let's see them and not go by here say
philG
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GB
11/17/2015 12:00am
philG wrote:
We are doing robot welding trials just now, titanium aero stuff, the human element is the ability to feel the weld as it goes along...
We are doing robot welding trials just now, titanium aero stuff, the human element is the ability to feel the weld as it goes along .

You could program a robot to paint a picture , but it will never look the same twice.

You can robot weld cheap stuff, simple welds , till the cows come home and never have an issue , but the more intricate the materials , and length of the weld, the easier it is to have problems.
ehr400 wrote:
You would be shocked in the robotic applications we do, alot of intricate welds robotically applied via Laser or friction stir on aluminum alloys in high...
You would be shocked in the robotic applications we do, alot of intricate welds robotically applied via Laser or friction stir on aluminum alloys in high volume production. +/- .5mm weld tolerancing over a 6' span.
I know what can be done, im just saying that the issues come when folk don't pay attention, and this is one of those deals.

Bearing in mind what you can do, for these to be failing is pretty poor.
IWreckALot
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11/17/2015 7:04am
tempura wrote:
Checked my 16 yz250 (2stroke). All the welds are good, but some are dirty as has been mentioned elsewhere. I don't mind dirty if they don't...
Checked my 16 yz250 (2stroke). All the welds are good, but some are dirty as has been mentioned elsewhere. I don't mind dirty if they don't crack. I'll keep a keen eye on them from now, although I haven't heard of the 2stroke frames to have this issue...yet...
I do think Yamaha has a bit of history with this problem. I remember a few years back a friend had his 250f frame crack at the weld. Yamaha didn't look after him on the issue unfortunately..
Welds that look bad are generally less functional than good looking welds. You can have good looking welds get compromised but it's not very common that bad looking welds pass a full stress test. If the cracks look shady, it's a good indication you might wan to weigh it pretty heavy.

As for the cracks on these yamahas, there are a number of reasons outside of the welding process itself that could cause it. As mentioned, heating and cooling is important as well as material prep, grade and cleaning prior to welding.

Make no mistake about it though, a crack in the weld is definitely a manufacturing problem.
MCarter
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11/17/2015 7:43am
Those bikes shown in the picture are ours. To be fair, I want to say that Yamaha and Triangle cycles have worked wonderfully on everything so far. All bikes can and will have issues. By and large the YZ250f has been an outstanding and reliable bike. Further, my rider is a fast B racer training at MTF where they are subjecting these bikes to some pretty heavy loads. In addition to frames, we go through a lot of wheels, but that's just a known cost or practicing daily on MX and SX. Everything from suspension to bolt torque, etc. has been checked. Also, the cracks are on the outside of the frame. The frame is also welded on the inside. I know of several racers who continue to use their bike with the surface crack on the outside of the frame (I'm not saying it's a good idea). I'm not saying Yamaha doesn't have an issue here. But from what I've seen most of the cracks are from people who are relatively fast and racing on tracks that transmit a lot of force to the bike and rider. I'm compiling a list of known frame cracks on the 15 and 16s. If you have one just email the owner's name and the last 5 digits of the VIN to michael499@me.com and I'll add you to the list. I won't circulate the list as it's going to Yamaha.

Be safe, and check your bike over regularly regardless of what you ride.

Michael

Mit12
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11/17/2015 8:47am Edited Date/Time 11/17/2015 8:47am
Frame cracks are nothing new. Through out the history of MX bikes there has been frames cracking. In 1983 I broke my 125 Suzuki in half at saddle back just 3 months after I got it. Suzuki said that it was a putpose built race bike that has no warrenty. This does not make it wright but it is the responsibility of the rider/mechanic to inspect the frame after each ride. All the cracks I see here are repairable. Yes it sucks but it does not make the bike or manufacture a POS.
Motofinne
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11/17/2015 8:54am Edited Date/Time 11/17/2015 9:09am
I don't care how hard you ride your bike. A frame year 2015 should not crack within 20h. Trying to justify that is very odd.
motox331
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11/17/2015 10:33am
This thread is all speculation and people trying to be engineers........
rutsmash
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11/17/2015 10:59am
MCarter wrote:
Those bikes shown in the picture are ours. To be fair, I want to say that Yamaha and Triangle cycles have worked wonderfully on everything so...
Those bikes shown in the picture are ours. To be fair, I want to say that Yamaha and Triangle cycles have worked wonderfully on everything so far. All bikes can and will have issues. By and large the YZ250f has been an outstanding and reliable bike. Further, my rider is a fast B racer training at MTF where they are subjecting these bikes to some pretty heavy loads. In addition to frames, we go through a lot of wheels, but that's just a known cost or practicing daily on MX and SX. Everything from suspension to bolt torque, etc. has been checked. Also, the cracks are on the outside of the frame. The frame is also welded on the inside. I know of several racers who continue to use their bike with the surface crack on the outside of the frame (I'm not saying it's a good idea). I'm not saying Yamaha doesn't have an issue here. But from what I've seen most of the cracks are from people who are relatively fast and racing on tracks that transmit a lot of force to the bike and rider. I'm compiling a list of known frame cracks on the 15 and 16s. If you have one just email the owner's name and the last 5 digits of the VIN to michael499@me.com and I'll add you to the list. I won't circulate the list as it's going to Yamaha.

Be safe, and check your bike over regularly regardless of what you ride.

Michael

Why not include 14s as well? That one picture I showed is a 14 and it appears to be the same issue. Granted, the 15s had a lower motor mount change for flex which could contribute but I would say, based on the location and similarity between all three years, it would seem to be more likely a weld problem or overall frame design issue. Unfortunately by the way, I am not that fast so not sure how much of a load I am creating from speed. Yamaha would not help me because they said bike had too many hours. I took it to a welder that knows aluminum and he did a good job of fixing it. He said the original weld was dirty and other technical jargon but basically, he said the weld was no good.
mag23
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11/17/2015 11:14am Edited Date/Time 11/17/2015 11:15am
motox331 wrote:
This thread is all speculation and people trying to be engineers........


I guess this is speculation............
seth505
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11/17/2015 11:26am Edited Date/Time 11/17/2015 11:28am
motox331 wrote:
This thread is all speculation and people trying to be engineers........
This is from people who know what they are talking about if you want some factual info

"Why is my aluminum weld much weaker than the parent material?

In steels a weld can be made as strong as the parent material, but this is not the case with aluminum. In almost all instances, the weld will be weaker than the parent material.

To further understand why this occurs, let's look at the two classifications of aluminum alloys: heat treatable and non-heat treatable. The latter category is hardened only by cold working which causes physical changes in the metal. The more the alloy is cold worked the stronger it gets.

But, when you weld an alloy that has been cold worked, you locally anneal the material around the weld so that it goes back to its 0 tempered (or annealed) condition and it becomes "soft". Therefore, the only time in the non-heat treatable alloys that you can make a weld as strong as the parent material is when you start with 0 tempered material.

With heat treatable aluminum alloys, the last heat treatment step heats the metal to approximately 400° F. But when welding, the material around the weld becomes much hotter than 400° F so the material tends to lose some of its mechanical properties. Therefore, if the operator doesn't perform post-weld heat treatments after welding, the area around the weld will become significantly weaker than the rest of the aluminum - by as much as 30 to 40 percent. If the operator does perform post weld heat treatments, the proprieties of a heat treatable aluminum alloy can be improved.

The following is a guide as to which series of aluminum alloys are heat treatable and which are not:

Heat treatable series: 2000, 6000, 7000.

Non-heat treatable: 1000, 3000, 4000, 5000."

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